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Topic: Looking for Robert Welsh Bisset Russell & Margaret Hamilton's families. (Read 611 times)
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9204
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Doohhh 
There is a death for a Robert Welsh Bisset b. 1878 in Dumfries in 1959. Might be worth you looking at that to see what it says. This must be the entry referred to in the CF post you would think given the names.
Monica
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'Trish'
RootsChat Member
Posts: 227
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Going through the papers that Maggie sent me, I have found the death certificate for RWBR in 1959, but I believe that my RWBR died in 1930, also the grandmother is different, and the sister's name is different, I have that Roberts sister was Catherine, on Maggies the sister is Thomasina, unless of course Robert had two sisters both Thomasina and Catherine.
The name I was trying to find earlier was Omesbury, the hotel owner (according to Ellen) was Ormsby Hamilton and that he was wheelchair bound and owned the hotel Calonie? Killiney? Then mysteriously Ormesbury changes sex and becomes female and mother to Margaret Hamilton! 
Also the other tattoo was 'Arizoca's daughter', he had two tattoo's - & 'Compowell of India'? I have tried to find out about these two tattoos to see what she was refering to but have been unable to find them, maybe she dreamt this up too?
So plan of action:
1. I need to look for a death of RWBR in 1930.
2. I need to find if Thomasina and Catherine are indeed sisters
3. I need to confirm the grandmother of Robert, I have Catherine Robertson (b 1808) and Maggie has Janet Robson (b6. 1806 Troqueer).
I'm just looking at my notes and at some point when speaking to Ellen, she mentioned her return to her family in Pollockshaw, when RWBR died at the age of 9-10 years.
Unfortunately (or fortunately - lovely holiday town - have you been?) I live in Bournemouth, so its a bit tricky for me to go to Scotland, I might have to leave that exercise until I can get up there say for a couple of days.
Regards Trish
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Fear, Puddy, Bunn, Hemsbury - Wedmore Somerset. Watts - Romsey Hants, Frome Somerset, Warminster Wilts & Wokingham Berkshire. Roberts - Newport, Stone Glos, Austin - Blaina Monmouth.
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9204
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Hi Trish
Thomasina was another of the illegitimate children of Janet Bisset. She was born in Morton By Thornhill, Dumfries-shire on 08 SEP 1870. I have been struggling in the last day or so to find the Bisset family in the 1871/1881 census. This looks like them in 1891:
Janet Bisset 58 (Parochial Aid), b. Dumfries, Dumfriesshire
Janet Bisset 89 (Parochial Aid), b. (Priestland), Kirkcudbrightshire
Thomasina Bisset 20, Woollen Sower, b. Morton
Robert Bisset 13 b. Maxwelltown, Kirkcudbrightshire...This is Robert Welsh Bisset
Josephina Bisset 2, granddaughter, b. Dumfries
Address: 131 High St, Dumfries
Loose them again by 1901!
You and Maggie seem to have different opinions as to who Robert WBR was. Maggie seems to be following the family above, with the short marriage for Robert to Robina in 1910 before his marriage to Maggie Hamilton in 1911. The death in 1959 looks to be for this Robert. Who reported the death, not clear from what you have said. Did parents show as Joseph Russell, an iron turner or something similar, and Janet Bisset on this certificate?
Trish, you seem to be in conflict in your head and from what you say, you seem to think that Robert is the one showing as son of Robert Russel, a coach body maker and Janet Robertson (it is this Janet Robertson whose mother is Catherine Morrison). This Robert was born in Glasgow, and shows with a sister Catherine and we have census entries for him, still with mother in 1901 with father having died when he was young.
My own gut feel pulls toward the RWB, son of Janet Bisset. All the middle surnames are in this family. Re-inforced by when brother Joseph Bisset married, he married as Russell with father showing as Joseph Turner and mother Janet Bisset. He shows later in Glasgow area with his wife by 1901, working as a railway shunter.
Just reading through your last post, I see that Maggie has found that Janet Bisset's mother's maiden name was Janet Robson, which just adds to the possibility that Robert WBR got confused with his mother's maiden name and gave his maternal granny's surname at the time of his marriage to Maggie Hamilton.
But these are my own thoughts.....it is you who has to be certain and confident in what you are finding 
Monica
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9204
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Regarding the mysterious Ormsby Hamilton. From the 1911 Irish census, I wonder if the following entry could be his www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/:
Thomas Ormsby Hamilton, 52, farmer, b. Co Sligo
Elizabeth Hamilton, wife, 28, b. Co Sligo (married 9 years, no children)
James Hamilton, brother, 55, farmer, b. Co Sligo
The family show as living in 1 Knockbeg West (Collooney, Sligo)...is this where the Hotel Collooney (Calonie/ Killiney) comes in....
Also, I wonder if this the Castle reference you quoted: Markree Castle Hotel Sligo in Collooney www.markreecastle.ie (click on the History link for background)
All speculative, not sure if this will help you much at this stage.
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'Trish'
RootsChat Member
Posts: 227
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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That could be him, the hotel was just outside Dublin, Ellen use to say that it was Killarney(?) and that she lived with her mother in Dun Laoghaire and I noticed on a may Killiney, which isnt far from where she lived. Just looking at my notes and there was a Hamilton who was the teacher at the school.
I have just thought if Ormesby Hamilton was wheelchair bound, then I wouldnt have though he would be a farmer, but there again, Ellen strayed from the truth, inventing people to fit in with her story. Prime example is Ormesby being a male one minute then mother to Maggie Hamilton the next.
I also think I found her out on another, she told me that she was a contortionist at Professor Popeji circus(cant remember the exact name of the circus). But on investigation this particular circus I found out was around in South Africa when Ellen lived over there and definetely wasnt in England in 1938-1940. The only truth she has said is that she belong to the army in Nottingham and met her future husband there!
I wonder if I will ever find out about her family and her life. Her home whilst in Ireland was in Adelaide street next to the school. On searching a map there is a Adelaide street and I found out there was a school there.
So she must have been there!
Regards Trish
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Fear, Puddy, Bunn, Hemsbury - Wedmore Somerset. Watts - Romsey Hants, Frome Somerset, Warminster Wilts & Wokingham Berkshire. Roberts - Newport, Stone Glos, Austin - Blaina Monmouth.
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9204
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Trish, we're going round the houses on this one  The entry above is the one we have discussed a few times. This Robert's father was a Robert, occupation a coach body maker. No reference to a Joseph here unfortunately.
Apart from being born c. the right time and mother's name showing as Robinson, there is nothing really to connect your Robert to this one in Glasgow.
I agree with the other researcher you are working with and also with Mo from your previous post, that it is more likely, given the info you have that your Robert was born in Kircudbright to Janet Bissett. You have all the clues there in that family:
1. Robert Welsh Bisset born illegitimate to Janet Bisset in Troqueer, Kircudbright in 1877.
2. Janet Bisset's mother was Janet Robson which may explain the use of that surname in error in RWBR's marriage entry for his mother's name.
3. Robert's brother, Joseph Bisset, married as Russell showing his father as a Joseph Russell and mother Janet Bisset. What was the occupation showing for fatherJoseph from the image that Mo sent you of this marriage entry?
4. This Robert's marriage entry to likely first wife Robina shows an occupation that matches what you have in his marriage entry to Maggie later that year.
These are the actual facts that you have to work with. To be honest, the fact that RWBR married in Glasgow is no indication of his birth place.
Monica
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'Trish'
RootsChat Member
Posts: 227
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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No you miss understand me, Robert on the 1891 census says his birthplace is glasgow, also there are a few things which dont tally up. Roberts grandmother was a Catherine Robinson, Maggie has something completey different. Also Robert had a sister Catherine. There again Maggie has another name. This is why I cannot actually agree that what Maggie has is my family. I dont disagree with the fact that Robert could have been married before. But until I reconcile these names I cannot agree that Maggie's family is mine.
regards Trish
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Fear, Puddy, Bunn, Hemsbury - Wedmore Somerset. Watts - Romsey Hants, Frome Somerset, Warminster Wilts & Wokingham Berkshire. Roberts - Newport, Stone Glos, Austin - Blaina Monmouth.
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9204
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That's great news that on Joseph Bisset's marriage, under the name of Russell, his father Joseph Russell shows as an iron turner! That, for me, would be the last piece on the verification trail that the family down in Dumfries is indeed your Robert's family
As mentioned, you and Maggie are tracing different family for RBWR. Maggie has the family in Dumfries, you have the family in Glasgow as potential family for RWBR.
The Robert born in Glasgow to Robert and Janet (Robinson) is the one who had a sister Catherine and maternal grandmother Catherine.
The Robert in Dumfries, b.. Torqueer, is the one born illegitimate with the connection to the names Welsh/Bissett/Russell. His brother Joseph, showed his father as Joseph Russell, iron turner, which is what your Robert gave as information. His maternal grandmother was Janet Robson, the surname your Robert gave on his MC to Maggie. This Robert's sister was Thomasina. This Robert also has the right occupation and was free to marry Maggie following the v. early death of first wife Robina.
I think this might be as close as you get Trish, without visiting a genealogy centre in Scotland and going through all the Robert Russell marriage/ deaths to discout the Glasgow born one. I think his family is the one that Maggie has. All the information you have on RWBR are contained within this family.
I think you have not been helped by some of the family stories that have been handed down. Particularly that RWBR died c. 1930. As you have seen, there is nothing to support this. The fact that the family seem to have been divided in the 1920s would make me suspect that RWBR and Maggie may have parted around this time, although not through a formal divorce which in that period was out of reach for many people.
What did the 1959 death cert say for the Robert who died in Dumfries regarding wife/ves, parents, informant and occupation?
Monica
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'Trish'
RootsChat Member
Posts: 227
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi thanks for that and I do apologies, thanks for your imput, if I every get this thing entirely sorted out I will let you know. But as you say family stories hey!
Thanks again Trish
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Fear, Puddy, Bunn, Hemsbury - Wedmore Somerset. Watts - Romsey Hants, Frome Somerset, Warminster Wilts & Wokingham Berkshire. Roberts - Newport, Stone Glos, Austin - Blaina Monmouth.
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'Trish'
RootsChat Member
Posts: 227
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi, I can now prove that Robert Welsh bissett Russell is a totally different person that Robert Welsh Bissett. Maggie has Robert Welsh Bissett on the 1891 Census in Dumfies with his mother Janet and his grandmother also Janet along with his sister Thomasina & Thomasina's daughter Josephine.
I have my Robert Welsh Bissett Russell also on the 1891 Census for 338 Duke Street Glasgow with his mother Janet Russell nee Robertson, his grandmother Catherine Robertson and Robert's sister Catherine.
So therefore the marriage Maggie has of Robert Welsh Bissett to Margaret Hamilton is wrong! It was my Robert W B Russell who married Margaret Hamilton in 1911.
So not only do they both appear on the 1891 Census, but the sisters names are different.
No doubt this argument will go on but I am satisfied that my Robert W B Russell is not Robert Welsh Bissett who married Robina Gardiner Kirk.
regards Trish
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Fear, Puddy, Bunn, Hemsbury - Wedmore Somerset. Watts - Romsey Hants, Frome Somerset, Warminster Wilts & Wokingham Berkshire. Roberts - Newport, Stone Glos, Austin - Blaina Monmouth.
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