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Topic: COMPLETED Claud Butler of Fulham - with Carmarthenshire COMPLETED (Read 438 times)
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Valda
Global Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9715
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Hi
Many Rootschatters have access to the 1901 census so I would suggest completing this post and starting a new post on the Carmarthenshire board giving all the details and see what is suggested there.
Regards
Valda
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lizzieliza
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 53
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Valda.
Could you please move this posting to the Carmarthen site as offered in your previous reply, as if left to me it will probably end up in Scotland! 
Thanks.
Liz
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osprey
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 3623
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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the place name looks like it could be Llanwrda which was in Llandovery registration district at that time. But, very few Butler bmds in the district. There is a birth reg for Edith Constance D Butler in june qtr 1875, but also a death reg for her in march qtr 1881 in Cardiff registration district, so she doesn't appear on a census.
Agree with Valda - the marriage cert with details of John's father should help your search.
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Cornwall: Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Kellett, Tebb
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lizzieliza
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 53
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi there.
Many thanks to you all for your help, very much appreciated.
Liz
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lizzieliza
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 53
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi everyone.
I have finally got the marriage cert for Claud's father. details as follows :-
John Morgan Butler b. 1871 married Mary Wotton on 12.3.1901 in Ashford Kent.
It gives John's father as Martin Butler Profession=Gentleman
Now we know that John was born in Carmathen. I believe our link to Claud has to come from one of John's siblings.
Claud is on the 1901 census as living in London.
What I am desparate to find out is, who John's siblings/Parents were and whether they moved to London as a family?
Could someone please check census' for me to try and find john and his family in Carmarten? I really would appreciate your help.
Many thanks.
Liz
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lizzieliza
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 53
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Tati.
The witnesses were both from Mary Wottons family. No Morgans or Butlers.
This search is becoming a real headache! I have delved into every site I can think of, and there are so few Martin's, and none appear to be mine  I did look at the BMD and found a Martin married in 1873 in Swansea, figuring he might have moved about a bit, I had someone offer to check it out. They said this Martin married either Hannah or Claudia Davies. So, I checked through census' thinking if I come across a son John I may be in with a chance. Can't find them at all!
He's surely got to be out there somewhere?
The other strange thing is, Claud Butler, who somehow links to our family, and the whole reason for this search, doesn't appear to be on anyones tree, and yet being the famous person he was, I felt sure someone would have claimed him as their ancestor?
I really appreciate you trying to help me out.
Many thanks.
Liz
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Valda
Global Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9715
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Hi
Once it gets this difficult you have to bring in the possibility of illegitimacy. Illegitimate people if they married where they were not known do not usually admit they are illegitimate on their marriage certificates. Their fathers are given the same surnames as themselves which might be the same anyway if they decided to use their father's surname when they became an adult or it might be different. If illegitimate it calls into question any details that are given about the father.
You have two surnames in the frame Butler and Morgan.
What age did John Morgan Butler give on his marriage. Was it consistent with the censuses?
Regards
Valda
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lizzieliza
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 53
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Valda.
Thank you for taking time to advise on this.
Yes, ages etc are consistant. John Morgan Butler was 30 yrs when married in 1901, the same age as on 1901 census. On 1911 census he is 39. a Draper. On his marriage cert his father is listed as Gentleman. Now, they were clearly a family of means, because Claud was very young when he started his cycle business etc.
Morgan is quite unusual for a middle name isn't it? Can't say I've come across it before.
I spent last night going through all the possible births covering a 7 years period, not one John Morgan!
I think I am now losing the plot  because the possibility that Martin, who married in Swansea in 1873 (again, who I can't find on census) could be the father of John Morgan Butler. Swansea comes under Glamorganshire, could this have something to do with the name??
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osprey
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 3623
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I've just searched on FreeBmd for all regsitrations with John Morgan as first names - there are 2493 of them - so not uncommon. It could be that Morgan was his birth surname and he added Butler later which could explain why he can't be found before the 1901 census. Couple of possible John Morgan births registered Llandovery in the right period.
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Cornwall: Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Kellett, Tebb
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Valda
Global Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9715
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Hi
An illegitimate start in life does not preclude John from working hard and establishing himself as a draper if he had the business acumen. In consequence he would put his own son's life and prospects on a firm footing. Or Claud himself was the entrepreneur in the family.
There are 12 John Morgan birth registrations in Carmarthenshire between 1870 and 1871.
The Martin Butler marrying in the Swansea area in 1873 may very well have been Irish in origin and may not have remained in Wales.
Regards
Valda
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lizzieliza
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 53
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi.
The couple of births you have found in LLandovery, does this district come under Carmarthenshire by any chance? and if so, could you post details please?
Thanks
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osprey
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 3623
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I mentioned the ones in Llandovery as that registration district covered Llanwrda at the time, but there are plenty more John Morgan(s) in Carmarthenshire...
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Cornwall: Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Kellett, Tebb
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