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Topic: Glasgow marriage (Read 664 times)
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sancti
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1840
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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The fact the marriage is on the OPR's would indicate the marriage was CoS. It was not uncommon for Irish catholics to marry as CoS due to the anti catholic discrimination in central Scotland at the time. After the Catholic Emancipation Act of 1829 some would have reverted to catholicism.
It is interesting that no births are showing to this couple on the OPR's which could indicate that they did revert back to catholicism. You could check the marriages of any children to see what forms they took.
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juiceanca
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 30
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Monica
That is very interesting as it seems to fit very well,i wonder where Michael was at this time,maybe military?? as i have peters marriage certificte for 1848 and it does not state michael campbell as deseased.
The Marriage was in the Catholic parish church of manchester,Lancaster.
I want to thank you all for your time it is so really appreciated.i am enclosing the Birth for Peter campbell from the Catholic records which i found as i am trying to be sure is the same persons.
julian
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9065
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Hi Julian
Hard to say about whether father Michael was deceased at the time of Peter's marriage. Marriage certificates don't always confirm this information and just because he doesn't show as deceased doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't unfortunately.
Sponsors to Peter's baptism were a Peter Kelly and Rose McArthur. I wonder if Peter Kelly sponson was Mary's brother or father?
Can't see anything obvious for Michael, father, in 1841 in Scotland.
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9065
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Posted in error.
Monica 
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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ibi
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 362
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The Barony OPR page involved here makes for fascinating reading.
There are 23 entries. Of those, 12 are just names and can be assumed to be a record of payment for the proclamation of banns; and for members of an Established Church of Scotland church in Barony parish.
Barony parish was massive in extent. Think of an upside down horseshoe abutting the River Clyde, surrounding the comparatively small city parish. Some decades later, albeit after substantial, continuing population increase, it took over 10 registration districts to cover Barony parish.
Another two are just names and the record of the fact that the marriage was irregular. (See below in terms of it being quite likely that these couples were thereby 'legalising' their iregular marriages.)
One entry I'm not sure about.
One is a proclamation and confirmation that the marriage took place, but no minister's name.
The other 7 are the proclamation plus "... and were married by the Rev Matthew Graham with a date" [two by this minister], and one each by the Revds Wm Bedston [sp?], John Love, John Burns, Robert Brodie, and Alex Turnbull.
If anyone has the time it would be fascinating to look at the various Fasti and find out which church these ministers belonged to.
Just because someone appears in the OPR does mean that they were a member of the Established Church of Scotland (ECoS). All that can be stated with certainty is that the OPRs were the records kept by the ECoS.
From the very beginning the ECoS General Assembly's instructions to ministers were that they should keep records for all those in their parishes.
Some did, most didn't, restricting their records to their own communicants.
As regards marriages in particular, it is quite common to find that the OPR entry notes that the couple were married by a minister other than the ECoS minister; and it can readily be shown that the minister involved was from a secession church.
I know an Australian researcher who has shown this to be the case for his ancestors over several generations on a number of lines over a number of Border parishs.
Whether or not this is the case in this Barony OPR remains to be seen.
By the early 1800s the law as regards what constituted an 'official' marriage in Scotland was a complete and utter mess; a veritable minefield.
Basic Scots Law was in conflict with church law, hence the various forms of irregular marriage that persisted until the 1900s.
Many people believed that, for a marriage to be regarded as 'legal', the banns at least, had to be recorded in the ECoS Old Parochial Register whether they were members of the Established CoS or not, or mambers of the various secession churches, the Episcopalian Church, the Roman Catholic church, Moravians, Bereans, Universalists, Unitarians, Swedenborgians, or other churches. I'm unsure about Jews and Baptists!
In this case, it's most unlikely that Michael Campbell and Mary Kellie joined the ECoS in order to marry.
They just followed the widespread practice of popping along to the local Session Clerk, paying their proclamation fee (a good source of income for the ECoS, BTW!), and were duly proclaimed. They didn't have to join the ECoS for that to happen!
There are rare but well documented instances of RC christenings being recorded in the OPRs.
For anyone interested in this situation, I'd recommend a read of D J Steel's "Sources for Scottish Genealogy and Family History", #12 in the National Parish Records Series published by the (London) Society of Genealogists in 1970.
Long since out of print but s/h copies are quite often available.
ibi
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Skoosh
RootsChat Member
Posts: 125
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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ibi, why were so many people married in the manse, I'm thinking of the Free Church here, post 1840s....Skoosh.
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ibi
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 362
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ibi, why were so many people married in the manse, I'm thinking of the Free Church here, post 1840s....Skoosh.
It wasn't just the Free Kirk where this took place. Many Established Church of Scotland marriages around this time, and for several decades thereafter, also took place in the manse.
It was also still very much the tradition at this time for the marriage to take place at the home of the bride.
In large towns and cities there was also a developing trend to use public or society halls of one sort or another, - doubtless due in part to being able to hold the reception there as well !, and get some Co-op divie return ! <bg>
Only some decades into the 20th century did church weddings become common again; 'again' as that had been the case several centuries ago.
As to the reason for using the manse, I can only speculate that it was seen as conferring a degree of appropriate solemnity on one of life's important events; better in that respect than the bride's home; and not involving the possible expenses of using the church.
Never mind that the two sacraments in the Protestant church are baptism and the Lord's Supper (Communion) so that perhaps it wasn't seen as appropriate to use the church ? .............
Other than the general knowledge that I've picked up over the years, I'm no great expert on the subject in terms of the locations used by various proportions of the population; and how those changed over the centuries.
I'd be most interested to hear from someone better informed; in particular with respect to any articles or books that focus on the location aspect.
There's plenty awfy guid books on other aspects of marriage in Scotland, in particular those authored/co-authored by Leah Leneman.
Orraverybest
ibi
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juiceanca
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 30
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi again all you good folks
Could anybody tell me if St Andrews,Clyde street. has a cemetery and if so is it large.
I was just wondering if there would be a headstone there or not, thats if they could afford one that is.
thankyou in advance julian
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gaucho
RootsChat Member
Posts: 104
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi,
There is no graveyard there. I'm not sure where the RC cemetery would have been.
best wishes,
John
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McGowan, Dunlop, Watson, Kerr, Rickelton, McLachlan, Devine, Glasgow
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Skoosh
RootsChat Member
Posts: 125
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Thanks ibi, still remember ma maw's Divi number! Re' Catholic burials, would it have been the cemetery in Caledonia Road in the south side, Dalbeth would have been later!.......Skoosh.
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Peter_Birth.jpg
