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Author Topic: David Williams Llansaintffraid  (Read 158 times)
fisherj
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Posts: 42


Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
David Williams Llansaintffraid
« on: Friday 23 October 09 20:15 UTC (UK) »
 My gr gr grandmother Eleanor Williams was born in 1837 in Llansaintffraid, Cardiganshire according to the census.  My grandmother held dear a momento of Llanonn which I guess was the Llanonn on the coast below Llansaintffraid.

Accoring to her marriage certificate (to Edward Rees), her father was David Williams, labourer.

I am wondering whether anyone can help me with finding David Williams together with Eleanor on the 1841 census or anything in parish records relating to her baptism or even (fingers crossed) David and Eleanor's mother's marriage.

It is such a common name and I am stuck!

Thank you for reading this  Smiley
Logged
Woodmancote:  Hobbs; Davison
Bisley:  Fisher
Eastcombe:  Winstone
Chalford:  Lambert
Newent:  Bowkett
Llangurig; Bedlinog: Rees
Llanonn: Williams
Charfield:  Fowler; Selman
Olveston:  Fisher
Batheaston: Fisher
Andover, Hurstbourne, Woodcutt, Shinfield: Farmer & Tanner
Alresford: Sprangle; Hack
heywood
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 8241
Re: David Williams Llansaintffraid
« Reply #1 on: Friday 23 October 09 20:31 UTC (UK) »
Hello,

Do you have Eleanor in 1851 census - or when she was married in censuses?
There is this:

1841 HO107; Piece 1373; Book: 11; Folio: 21; Page: 22; Line: 4
Tineved  Undecided Llan saint ffraid

Daniel Davies 30 yrs Farmer
James Davies 9 yrs M S
Jane Williams 7 yrs
Eleanor Williams 4 yrs
Catharine Williams 3 ys
Susan Williams 1 yrs

No relationships are given but the previous entry is Llanon Moses Williams 80 yrs and Mary Williams 80 yrs

I will check with 1851 or for other 1841

heywood
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Alexander, Suffolk and Lancashire; Ashworth,Whitworth, Grindrod Lancashire; Golden, Duffy County Mayo.
lizdb
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 9414
Re: David Williams Llansaintffraid
« Reply #2 on: Friday 23 October 09 20:40 UTC (UK) »
IGI has extracted record:

Christening
1 March 1837
Llansaintffraid
Eleanor Williams
parents David and Catherine
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Edmonds/Edmunds - mainly Sussex
DeBoo - London
Green - Suffolk

census information is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
heywood
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 8241
Re: David Williams Llansaintffraid
« Reply #3 on: Friday 23 October 09 20:49 UTC (UK) »
There is a David and Catherine in 1841 but with other children and no Eleanor  Undecided

Looking at Family Search (thanks Lizdb) there are other children - including Catherine b 1839 (is that the one in 1841 perhaps?) and Mary b 1845.

Is this her?

1851 HO107; Piece: 2484; Folio: 85; Page: 1
Penrheol Llansanffraid

David Pugh head 64 yrs Mason
Mary Pugh wife  64yrs
David Pugh son unmarried 27 yrs
Mary Williams 5 yrs grandaughter

all born Llansanffraid
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Alexander, Suffolk and Lancashire; Ashworth,Whitworth, Grindrod Lancashire; Golden, Duffy County Mayo.
heywood
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 8241
Re: David Williams Llansaintffraid
« Reply #4 on: Friday 23 October 09 21:08 UTC (UK) »
Could this be her in 1871  Huh
Have you looked at this one?

1871 RG10; Piece: 5558; Folio: 60; Page: 14
Graen Eli Llansantffraid

David Williams 64 yrs labourer
Catharine Williams 65 yrs
Eleanor Williams 33 yrs
Margaret Williams 17yrs

all born Llanstffraid
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Alexander, Suffolk and Lancashire; Ashworth,Whitworth, Grindrod Lancashire; Golden, Duffy County Mayo.
lizdb
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 9414
Re: David Williams Llansaintffraid
« Reply #5 on: Friday 23 October 09 21:12 UTC (UK) »
This is comnig together nicely - because hear are the Pughs (that Heywood found in 1851) 10 yrs earlier in 1841 ... and they do have a daughter Catherine!

HO107 1373 11
Llansaintffraid

David Pugh 50 Mason
Mary 50
Catherine 20
Logged
Edmonds/Edmunds - mainly Sussex
DeBoo - London
Green - Suffolk

census information is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
heywood
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 8241
Re: David Williams Llansaintffraid
« Reply #6 on: Friday 23 October 09 21:15 UTC (UK) »
I was thinking on those lines Liz - although I hadn't yet looked but Catherine would be married by then- I can't find them a yet in 1851 and 1861 - I wondefr if fisherj has them in censuses and only wants them in 1841- which is also a puzzle  Roll Eyes
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Alexander, Suffolk and Lancashire; Ashworth,Whitworth, Grindrod Lancashire; Golden, Duffy County Mayo.
lizdb
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 9414
Re: David Williams Llansaintffraid
« Reply #7 on: Friday 23 October 09 21:17 UTC (UK) »
Quote from: heywood on Friday 23 October 09 21:15 UTC (UK)
but Catherine would be married by then-

oh yes ... maybe I was getting carried away!
Logged
Edmonds/Edmunds - mainly Sussex
DeBoo - London
Green - Suffolk

census information is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
heywood
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 8241
Re: David Williams Llansaintffraid
« Reply #8 on: Friday 23 October 09 21:21 UTC (UK) »
puzzling... but fits  Wink   added- probably doesn't fit   Roll Eyes

1861 RG9; Piece: 4193; Folio: 87; Page: 24
Penheol

David Williams 39 yrs Agricultural labourer b Licenin  Undecided
Catherine Williams 43 yrs
David Williams 13 yrs shoemaker
Ann Williams 11 yrs
Catherine Williams 6 yrs
William P Williams 6 Mo
Mary Pugh mother 73 yrs Formerly mason's wife
Logged
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Alexander, Suffolk and Lancashire; Ashworth,Whitworth, Grindrod Lancashire; Golden, Duffy County Mayo.
lizdb
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 9414
Re: David Williams Llansaintffraid
« Reply #9 on: Friday 23 October 09 21:29 UTC (UK) »
Yes, it does all fit.
Maybe Catherine in 1841 with the Pughs was married and should have been recorded as Williams - but she just got writeen as a ditto.

But why was she back with her parents and her children with Daniel Davies?

Of course a census is only a record of what happened on that night - maybe the children were just having a 19th century version of a sleepover, maybe dad was away (we havent found him on 1841 have we?) and mum wasnt well or something.... and  then 150 years later we try to read all sorts in to it. Who knows?
Logged
Edmonds/Edmunds - mainly Sussex
DeBoo - London
Green - Suffolk

census information is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
lizdb
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 9414
Re: David Williams Llansaintffraid
« Reply #10 on: Friday 23 October 09 21:37 UTC (UK) »
Could this be David in 1841?

HO107 1373 1
Tynmor? Cilcennin

H/h of Francis Saunders Independent means
obviously a large household, many servants (M.S and F.S)
including
David Williams 20 M.S

was he a 'live-in' servant at the big house in Cilcennin (which could be his birthplace, see your find in1861)

I think we need a birth cert for a post 1837 child to confirm maiden name of mother, indeed if mother is Catherine, and also occupation of father.
What do you think Heywood?   
That might tie it all together, or alternatively make it all fall apart!

trouble is , Eleanor was just too early for Civil Registration, and I can see 2 Mary Williams in 1845 in Aberayon, and at least two margarets around her birth date
Logged
Edmonds/Edmunds - mainly Sussex
DeBoo - London
Green - Suffolk

census information is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
heywood
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 8241
Re: David Williams Llansaintffraid
« Reply #11 on: Friday 23 October 09 21:44 UTC (UK) »
I am really confused because the 1871 has a Margaret aged 17 yrs but she is not with that family in 1861.
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Alexander, Suffolk and Lancashire; Ashworth,Whitworth, Grindrod Lancashire; Golden, Duffy County Mayo.
heywood
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Posts: 8241
Re: David Williams Llansaintffraid
« Reply #12 on: Friday 23 October 09 21:48 UTC (UK) »
No- the 1861 family with Mary Pugh as mother are here in 1871  RG10; Piece: 5558; Folio: 32; Page: 15

so they can't be the one with Eleanor in 1871  Roll Eyes
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Alexander, Suffolk and Lancashire; Ashworth,Whitworth, Grindrod Lancashire; Golden, Duffy County Mayo.
lizdb
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 9414
Re: David Williams Llansaintffraid
« Reply #13 on: Friday 23 October 09 21:50 UTC (UK) »
1861 has 2 Margaret Williams in Llansaintffriad with grandparents - either could be her except one is age 10 and the grandparents are Davies (same surname as her siblings were with in 1841!) and the other is age 4 with Williams grandparents.

Rather a tricky one, this.
Logged
Edmonds/Edmunds - mainly Sussex
DeBoo - London
Green - Suffolk

census information is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
heywood
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 8241
Re: David Williams Llansaintffraid
« Reply #14 on: Friday 23 October 09 22:05 UTC (UK) »
Right- try this one:  Grin

1861 RG9; Piece: 4193; Folio: 102; Page: 1

Llansanffraid

David Williams 53 yrs road labourer b Llanbadarn-Trefeglwys
Cathrine Williams 55 yrs
Jane Williams daur 24 yrs
David Williams son 19 yrs
Margret Jones grandaughter 7 yrs

others born Llansanffraid

I would say that Margaret Jones is the 'daughter' in 1871 but Eleanor isn't here.

1851 HO107; Piece: 2484; Folio: 108; Page: 9
has a similar family but no Eleanor

all this leads me to think that fisherj has already done this and still can't get them together   Roll Eyes  neither can we  Grin
Logged
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Alexander, Suffolk and Lancashire; Ashworth,Whitworth, Grindrod Lancashire; Golden, Duffy County Mayo.
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