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Topic: Williams_Aberystwyth & James family (Read 267 times)
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MalNZ
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 10
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi
Would be most grateful for any information on any of the following, but particularly the relationship of Margaret to the James's, possibly a sister. David Edwards may also be related. Her marriage date & place are unknown.
Will of Margaret Williams, 26/5/1842 (dod 29/12/1849) of Pier Street, Aberystwyth, widow of Thomas Williams, Banker. As far as is known there were no children of this marriage.
Beneficiaries
Richard James, Llandovery
John James, Penlanforgan, parish Llanwrtyd.
Elizabeth Jones nee James, ?Courtaewyydd?, Llanfair ar y bryn
David James, ?Erwbalei?, Llandwrtyd
Rees James, Glangweche, p. Llandilfawr
Rees Rees, Llandovery, & Anne his wife nee James
Richard James (jn), Lamb Inn, Llandovery (of whom is he the junior?)
Executors Major Thomas Williams (ex 70th Regiment Bengal Native) (her husband's nephew, died Jan. 1852 and buried in Ystrad Meurig)
David Edwards, Surgeon, Aberystwyth.
Cheers
Mal_NZ
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Williams, Cardiganshire
Morris, Cardiganshire
Evans, Cardiganshire
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osprey
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 3601
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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some bits to start you off. I reckon Richard james is jnr to his father Richard.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CMN/Llandingad/Pigot1830.html
1851 Noyadd Green, Llandovery, Llandingat, Carmarthenshire HO107/2470 folio 324 pg 16
Richard James head widower 66 Sherriff officer b. Llanfairarybryn
1851 Market St, Llandovery HO107/2470 folio 341 pg 26
Richard James head mar 44 innkeeper & farmer of 39 acres employing one man b. Llandovery
Anne wife 44 d, Llandyfeisant
Margaret dau 21 b. Llandovery
Elizabeth dau 19 b. Llandovery
Richard son 10 b. Llandovery
Susan dau 8 b. Llandovery
John Daniel visitor mar 33 miner b. Devonshire Christs(?)
Margaret Daniel visitor mar 21 b. Llanfairarybryn
plus a servant
extracted baptism from IGI batch C099371 for Llandingat
Richard bp 6/12/1807 son of Richard & Margaret James
1851 Glangweche, Llandilofawr, Carms HO107/2471 folio 529 pg 4
Rees James head mar 52 g lab b. Llanfairarybryn
Catherine wife 57 b. Llandebie
John son 24 carpenter b. Llandebie
Beginning to look as if Llanfairarybryn might be important.
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« Last Edit: Friday 30 October 09 22:50 UTC (UK) by osprey »
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Cornwall: Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Kellett, Tebb
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osprey
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 3601
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Good grief! Found Elizabeth Jones at the first attempt! 
1851 Cwrtnewydd, Llanfairarybryn HO107/2470 folio 413 pg 14
Elizabeth Jones head widow 62 annuitant
Thomas son 25 miner in lead mine
Mary dau 20 house servant
Ann Williams lodger 18 dressmaker
all born Llanfairarybryn
Elizabeth James married Morgan Jones 5/12/1818 Llanfairarybryn
Their children appear in IGI batch C100791 for Pentretygwyn Independent in Llanfairarybryn
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Cornwall: Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Kellett, Tebb
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osprey
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 3601
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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1851 Penlanforgan, Hamlet of Llechweddor, Llanwrtyd, Breconshire HO107/2470 folio 470 pg 10
John James head mar 65 ag lab b. Brecs, Llanwrtyd
Mary wife 64 b. Carms, Llanfairarybryn
David Davies grandson 6 b. Llanfairarybryn
wonder if the enumerator got his dittos mixed up here. Both John & Mary show as 'not born in county' in 1841, but John's birthplace is shown as the same as person above him in 1851.
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Cornwall: Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Kellett, Tebb
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osprey
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 3601
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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1851 Errw'rbaily, Llechweddor, Llanwrtyd, Brecs HO107/2470 folio 469 pg 8
David James head mar 54 farmer of 83 acres
Catherine wife 42
Rees son 11
Catherine Jones 19 gen servant
all born Llanwrtyd
By 1861 David has a new wife and has increased the size of the farm - thanks to the inheritance, perhaps?
1861 Errw'rbaily, Llechweddor, Llanwrtyd RG9/4124 folio 20 pg 2
David James head mar 66 farmer of 148 acres with sheepwalk b. Carms, Llanfairarybryn
Mary wife 40 b. Llanwrtyd
Rhys son 21 b. Llanwrtyd
John Williams 64 cowman b. Llangammarch
John Jones 20 carter b. Llanwrtyd
Jane Jones 22 house servant b. Cardiganshire, Caron
there's a possible death registered Llandovery for Catherine James in dec qtr 1859
which would make this look a likely marriage reg
David James march qtr 1861 Llandovery with Mary Jones on the same page
The marriage cert would give name & occupation of father.
I've not found any definite trace of this family in the parish records for Llandingat or Llanfairarybryn, and I'm wondering if they were non-conformist. There certainly was a strong non-conformist movement in the area, not surprising with William Williams of Pantycelyn in the neighbourhood
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Williams_Pantycelyn
I know you're new to the site but I've noticed that you've visited the site each time I've posted, so assume you've read my findings. Any chance of some feedback? These haven't been the easiest of searches with common names and no dates of birth, so I hope I haven't been wasting my time.
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Cornwall: Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Kellett, Tebb
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osprey
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 3601
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I should have explained the joys of the IGI for most of Wales pre 1813. It is indexed as if the names are patronymics, whether they were or no, and at this late date, not many are. And it's just the way the IGI has indexed them, they are not that way in the original record.
So to find Richard's baptism, search in that batch for Richard by first name only. He will come up as Richard Richards, but father's name is Richard James.
You can see from that that finding baptisms on the IGI can be a little bit of a problem as you need to have an idea where someone was born, then check each entry for a particular first name to see if the father's surname matches. And be thankful for a not so common first name like Richard.
1841 ref for John & Mary is HO107/1365/23 folio 11 pg 8 - in hamlet of Llechweddor, Llanwrtyd although Ancestry has the parish as Llanwryd.
The family baptisms might not appear in parish records if they were non-conformist, but the marriages should. I've got 1813 onwards, but only the males are indexed.
I thought I had spotted Rees & Ann, but now have mislaid them. I'll have another look.
Do you have Margaret on the 1841? Does she show as not born in county?
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Cornwall: Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Kellett, Tebb
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osprey
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 3601
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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this could be them in 1841
Cross Lane, Llandingat HO107/1386/7 folio 29 pg 6
Rees Rees 35 labourer
Ann 30
Elizabeth 8
Margaret 2
Which would tie in with the marriage of Rees Rees & Anne James 16/12/1832 in Llandingat. And could well tie in with the baptism of Ann daughter of Richard & Margaret James 18/8/1805 IGI batch C099371, sister of Richard junior, as ages in 1841 rounded down.
I can't spot the couple in 1851. They seem to reappear in 1861 and later, still in Cross Lane, but Ann is several years younger and it could be a second marriage for Rees. Or there is a widowed Ann Rees in Queen St as well.
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Cornwall: Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Kellett, Tebb
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osprey
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 3601
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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1851 Queen St, Aberystwyth HO107/2485 folio 300 pg 54
David Edwards head unm 72 surgeon b. Cardiganshire, Lledrod
Margaret Jenkins unm 20 house servant b. Aberystwyth
I've found Margaret Williams in 1841 and she is indeed 'not born in county' so could indeed be part of the family from Llanfairarybryn.
I've had a quick look at a site which has coverage of non-conformist records but with no success
http://www.bmdregisters.co.uk/index.php
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Cornwall: Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Kellett, Tebb
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MalNZ
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 10
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi
It's now the weekend after a hectic week - ready to go on holiday for a week starting Sunday. Will be incommunicado for that time.
Other than Margaret James there seems to be no contact between other members of the two families. It is very nice to have the details so as to be able to say that and could not have done so without your help.
Now to a David Thomas and his adversaries.
He was a student at Ystrad Meurig for a short time (1824-5) and in 1821 when in Cardigan he was a winner of a Welsh prize competing against James Williams Morris also of Ystrad Meurig school, and James was being taught there by his older brother-in-law David Williams, nephew of Thomas Williams and Margaret nee James.. (PS I slipped up by using Evan Williams instead of Thomas Williams (they were brothers) in my last posting - just too too many common names!). That David Thomas went on years later to become a competitor for the wardenship of Llandovery with the formidable academic the Venerable Archdeacon John Williams of Edinburgh Academy - another relative.
It is the daughter of the above David Williams and wife Lucy Morris who emigrated to NZ (after marriage to her cousin once removed ( David Theodore Williams)). A really mixed up family. We have letters and a photo of her taken in the 1870-80's. David Theodore was also at the Edin. Acad for a short time.
The wife of the Ven. Williams is Mary Evans, only daughter of Thomas Evans of Llanilar. There are no details in the NZ family records of this marriage (?in Lampeter) and of her family, but the marriage took place presumably some time before the birth, probably in 1823, of Jane Eliza, the first of six daughters.
Another problem is seen the 1841 census for Lewis Edward William Morris, brother of James above. He was a solicitor in Carmarthen (census at Mt Pleasant, Llangunnor, Llandre). I am presuming that Rebecca and Catherine are his sisters. But more important, who are the parents of the two Williams's, Sarah and Jane?
Must go - it is getting late - midnight - and there is a 4 hour drive through the mountains tomorrow. Will be in touch again next Saturday/ Sunday NZ time.
Cheers
Mal_NZ
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Williams, Cardiganshire
Morris, Cardiganshire
Evans, Cardiganshire
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osprey
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 3601
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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hmmm.. not really sure what you're looking for here. Will have another read tomorrow when I'm less tired.
Possible marriage?
John Williams (clerk) of Lampeter married Mary Evans of Llansantffraid 10/8/1821
clerk in this context normally means clerk in holy orders.
Have a safe journey!
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Cornwall: Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Kellett, Tebb
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osprey
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 3601
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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presuming is a dangerous thing to do with family history. The Catherine Morris you refer to on the 1841 census is in a separate household within Mount Pleasant and is enumerated as a servant which is a little unlikely for a sister of Lewis. The 2 Williams are also in this separate household and servants. There is a / to show the end of household next to John's name
http://www.users.waitrose.com/~census/1841_transcription_hints.htm
Rebecca is a sister and regular visitor by the looks of it - or at least at census time
1851 Mount Pleasant HO107/2472 folio 134 pg 1
Lewis Morris head mar 49 attorney at law b. Cards, Aberystwyth
Sophia wife 45 b. town of Carmarthen
Rebecca sister 50 b. Aberystwyth
William son 13 b. Carmarthen
Charles Edward son 9 b. Mount Pleasant in Llangunnor
John son 11 b. Carmarthen
Margaret Thomas 57 general servant b. Kidwelly
Jane Thomas 22 general servant b. Kidwelly
Ann Thomas 22 genreal sedrvant b. Carmarthen
1861 Mount Pleasant RG9/4134 folio 12 pg 18
Lewis Morris head mar 61 Solicitor Registrar(?) of County Court of Glamorgan (at Swansea) b. Cards, Llanbadarn fawr
Sophia wife 52 b. Carmarthen St Peter
William H son 23 articled clerk b. Carmarthen St Peter
John son 22 undergrad Jesus College Oxford b. Carmarthen St Peter
Rebecca visitor 63 private property b. Llanbadarnfawr
Anne Jones 50 servant b. Carms, Mydrim
Jane Thomas 30 servant b. St Peters
Elizabeth Woolf 18 servant b. St Peters
Harriet Harries 40 mantua maker b. St Peters
The IGI batches for Llanbadarnfawr and Aberystwyth don't go back far enough to look for baptisms of the Morris family. The parish records are held in the record office and the National Library in Aberystwyth. Pity I didn't know a couple of months ago when I was in the library searching again, and in vain, for my Thomas family.
Lewis Morris married Sophia Hughes at Carmarthen St Peter's 25/10/1830
children of the couple appear in IGI batch C059251 for Carmarthen St Peter
Lewis Morris born 6/12/1831, bp 4/1/1832, died 21/4/1832
Lewis born 23/1/1833 bp 25/2/1833
Sophia bp 20/3/1835 died 26/5/1836
William Hughes bp 4/1/1837
John bp 17/5/1839
Charles Edward bp 1/10/1841
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Cornwall: Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Kellett, Tebb
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osprey
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 3601
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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if you search on 'Lewis Morris' as exact phrase here
http://www2.swansea.gov.uk/_info/cambrian/default.asp
you'll get various notices that refer to his family and professional life. An 'all words' search for Rebecca Morris finds her death notice and gives their father as William.
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Cornwall: Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Kellett, Tebb
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