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Topic: Carrolls and McCarrolls - somewhere to start... (Read 692 times)
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jj.carroll
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 80
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Today, I received an inquiry about a 2007 posting about my family.
This lady stated that they have some Carroll/McCarroll ancestry
“…but from the Parish of Fintona, not the parish of Clogher as you state your family is from.”
Then she went on to say:
“…The research I did…if my research is correct, was my McCarroll's were from the townland of Rathfragan in the parish of Fintona.
My great grandmother Mary Carroll was the daughter of Elizabeth Watson married to Patrick Carroll. When I found the baptismal entry about 20 years ago at a Church of Latter Day Saints, the family name was spelled McCarroll. Mary was born 1865 and came to the US in about 1881 with her brother Bernard and her parents. At the baptism, the godparents were also McCarroll's (can't remember the names at the moment - would have to pull the paperwork out.)”
Let me say at the outset, the searcher should be encouraged in that she was reviewing various postings on the web and felt that some of the information might lead “somewhere.” That is a good start, because she would like to address concerns that have already been covered and does not want to repeat them.
But, there are problems in the questions that she asked and I would like to address some of them.
For example, there is no parish (religious or civil) that is directly tied to the town of Fintona. And she did not indicate if that parish was Roman Catholic, which is quite different from the civil parish that might be also associated with Fintona. In fact, Donacavey Parish (the civil one) also contains the Church of Ireland (1777), Donaghcavey (1857, Roman Catholic, probably St. Laurence’s chapel), Ballynahatty Presbyterian (1843), Fintona Presbyterian (1836), and two are others, but you can see the confusion that can come from only a reference to Fintona. But at least it was a start.
It may be that she had mistaken the townland of Fintona with the parish, because there
the oldest registering couple with that McCarroll name involved an Owen McCarroll from the Clogher parish. But in 1870 Clogher R.C. Parish was divided and Eskragh (Eskra) was created out of it when the chapel in Lisnarable townland became a parish. Catherine McCusker (her father was listed as a McCosker in Griffiths) was from the townland of Augharonan, in Donacavey Parish. If it was a Roman Catholic parish that would be St. Laurence's chapel, I believe. But, they lived south of Fintona and this McCarroll family came from the north of Fintona. While the distances today would not be great you must remember that in 1870 they were.
Owen and Catherine were my paternal great great grandparents. Because they were Catholics their parents did not have the benefit of civil registration of births or marriages; universal registration did not begin until 1864, and only Protestant marriages were registered from 1845 onwards. So, without their religious background we have a quandary and can only rely upon the various church registers. Success here depends of course on two things, locating the correct register and the date at which it commences. But no dates were given, except for 1865 and we know she did find a registration for that birth. But where did it take place?
But what of religion? There are a few clues, but they really don’t lead us anywhere without more information. Were they Carroll’s or McCarroll’s in Ireland? It appears that they were really McCarroll’s and that would probably mean they were Catholics. But the great grandmother was Elizabeth Watson and that brings the religion into question. Elizabeth would not be a normal name of a Catholic child, or would it?
I will take a breather from this and add to it tomorrow.
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Carroll, McCarroll, McCusker and McCosker from County Tyrone. Then there are Dillen for Derry, Gaffigan, McGaffigan, Crennan, and Amos. Now adding: Leonard, Berry, and Gahagan from Strokestown, County Roscommon, also Gahigan, Hounihan, and Whonohan and another branch of Carrolls from County Cork.
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jj.carroll
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 80
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I began my search in 1982 on lark because I just happened to be around Fintona. I later ended up with another person visiting the LDS History Center in Salt Lake City while we were attending a conference together. Oh, I made many mistakes once I got started. And I still do, as noted in the quick responses to this posting. I wanted to share some of them with everyone, the reason for this posting.
But, back to Salt Lake City. It was time to find Owen and Catherine's marriage.
Owen was the son of Eugene McCarroll from Corkhill, and in 1867 it was part of the R.C. parish of Clogher, which also was the civil parish of that name. Now Eugene probably went by the name of Owen because they are interchangeable and this created a problem when we went looking for Catherine and Owens’s marriage registration. Although Owen signed his name as Owen he was listed on the marriage certificate (?) as Eugene and we paid Ned looking for an Owen. Also, Catherine had become a McCusker although her father was a McCosker according to Griffiths. Later, when looking for an aunt’s birth Catherine was listed as a McKuskar. But persistence paid off for me because I wanted to find out why the LDS information did not square up with what I had found in the 1982 visit to the Clogher records where I had actually seen the information when it was written down, and it was not part of the LDS archives.
Now I do not want to imply that this searcher’s parents or grandparents or great grandparents were married in Fintona. In fact, after a careful reading of her request you could surmise that it did not happen that way. Mary, her grandmother was born in 1865, about the time that my Owen and Catherine were married. But she came to America in 1881 with her brother Bernard, so she could not have been married in Ireland. We then have only Mary and Bernard born around 1865 (was Bernard older or younger?), possibly in the townland of Rathfragan (which is north of the town of Fintona, by a townland called Donacavey in the parish of Donacavey). And we have their parents arriving with them. Would not the start of the search turn to Rathfragan and Griffith’s?
Owen and Catherine made their home in the 167 acre townland of Corkhill, farming and raising a passel of kids. We know that because their farmhouse was removed in 1982 by the Devine’s, who then owned the land. And alas, I was there to witness it's demise. All of their children married except Patrick and the last two, Jane and Hugh, who stayed on the farm where we have a record of Catherine's death. Three of the children were to go to San Francisco, California; one of them stayed there and raised his family - Tom Carroll who had married Catherine Daley from Newtown Saville (later to become Newtownsaville, in the parish of Eskra, or St. Patrick's) before leaving for San Francisco.
The rest of the family, including my grandfather, are buried at St. Patrick's and the family headstone is one of the oldest there - and all of the Carroll's that have headstones there are named McCarroll's. but one. Although Michael McCarroll became a Carroll in California he lived in Fintona as a McCarroll. Why, we have not questioned. But there is a mysterious headstone in that cemetery for a Patrick Carroll who died in 1912; was he the Mad Man as the family called him because Pat had traveled back and forth to San Francisco?
Note that the "Mc" had been dropped, as were those of the brothers that went to San Francisco. when they became Carroll's. In this case, it all happened before the 1906 earthquake, but that is not the reason why for the earthquake and fire. My grandfather immigrated to America in 1899 and was to return to Ireland in 1912. Ships records should be used to verify that; however the expense is such that I choose not to do that. We did a review that found when they returned in 1924 and that is a good source that some could help with on these boards.
I guess I will stop here, but i will pick it up tomorrow. Good luck in your hunting!
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Carroll, McCarroll, McCusker and McCosker from County Tyrone. Then there are Dillen for Derry, Gaffigan, McGaffigan, Crennan, and Amos. Now adding: Leonard, Berry, and Gahagan from Strokestown, County Roscommon, also Gahigan, Hounihan, and Whonohan and another branch of Carrolls from County Cork.
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jj.carroll
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 80
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Tony,
It is a problem when one moves from a specific example and generalizes it to something that really could not stand up to scrutiny for every case.  Nor did you make it such a general rule, but it must be realized that there were some that named their children after saints, and those sanctified persons would of course be Irish. There were still many Roman Catholics, even in the enlightened 1800's (?), and even today, that would never, ever name their child after that good queen Bess. While it is good that you would posit that changes were afoot around that time I will stand by the statement that one needs to look into that matter. 
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Carroll, McCarroll, McCusker and McCosker from County Tyrone. Then there are Dillen for Derry, Gaffigan, McGaffigan, Crennan, and Amos. Now adding: Leonard, Berry, and Gahagan from Strokestown, County Roscommon, also Gahigan, Hounihan, and Whonohan and another branch of Carrolls from County Cork.
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aghadowey
Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 15167
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I'm afraid I don't really understand what you are trying to say but would agree with Tony that using the Christian name Elizabeth does not give any indication of a family's religious denomination.
I would disgree with this bit of your post "There were still many Roman Catholics, even in the enlightened 1800's (?), and even today, that would never, ever name their child after that good queen Bess." as about 25 years ago I stayed with a R.C. family in Galway with a young daughter whose mother told me her name, Elizabeth, was after 'the English" Queen.
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jj.carroll
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 80
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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aghadowey,
If you will re-read my original post you will see that I raised the question and then asked if that was the case, in all instances.
It was, and still is, something to explore and the subject matter need not be hidden away in some dark closet, as some might do. While you may use your example of the R.C. family in Galway, about 25 years ago, and Tony could find another one for Fintona, it does not follow that in all cases the religion of the parents have nothing to do with the naming of their child. I too could tell of examples that would buttress my argument (?) that when you do not have any more information than just the name it is necessary to ask questions, even if they raise the hackles that we would like left alone.
As you stated, using the Christian name of Elizabeth does not give any indication of the family's denomination in itself - but it could, if there were other questions asked. Would you not ask the other questions for fear that the answers might offend?
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Carroll, McCarroll, McCusker and McCosker from County Tyrone. Then there are Dillen for Derry, Gaffigan, McGaffigan, Crennan, and Amos. Now adding: Leonard, Berry, and Gahagan from Strokestown, County Roscommon, also Gahigan, Hounihan, and Whonohan and another branch of Carrolls from County Cork.
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aghadowey
Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 15167
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Certain Christian names, especially those with an Irish interpretation, might have mainly used by Catholic families at one time but the point still remains that the use of Elizabeth as a Christian name was used by all religions in Ireland. both in the past and present, so its use in the instance of Elizabeth Watson doesn't help identify her family background.
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jj.carroll
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 80
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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aghadowey,
So now we should ignore that line in inquiry?
Funny, but the original posting by the individual that started this has just responded by e-mail that she was amazed to find only a few Watson's and they were Presbyterian.
"I'm also wondering where did Elizabeth Watson come from. She apparently was Catholic as was my g-grandmother but I haven't found many Watson's in the area. I found one in the area in the 1911 census and they were Presbyterian."
I never posited that Elizabeth was never used by all religions in Ireland, and any reference to that is not valid. It was only a line of inquiry that could lead to finding answers to those questions which some would not have us ask in our search for ancestors.
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Carroll, McCarroll, McCusker and McCosker from County Tyrone. Then there are Dillen for Derry, Gaffigan, McGaffigan, Crennan, and Amos. Now adding: Leonard, Berry, and Gahagan from Strokestown, County Roscommon, also Gahigan, Hounihan, and Whonohan and another branch of Carrolls from County Cork.
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TF13
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 723
Emain Macha
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Hi Tony, It is a problem when one moves from a specific example and generalizes it to something that really could not stand up to scrutiny for every case. Nor did you make it such a general rule, but it must be realized that there were some that named their children after saints, and those sanctified persons would of course be Irish. There were still many Roman Catholics, even in the enlightened 1800's (?), and even today, that would never, ever name their child after that good queen Bess. While it is good that you would posit that changes were afoot around that time I will stand by the statement that one needs to look into that matter.
you asked a general question about the name Elizabeth and I gave a general answer which I still stand by. If I can word it another way then I would say that Elizabeth would be a normal name for a catholic girl but also a normal name for a non-catholic girl.
What I am trying to say is that you should not ignore any possible connections to your family,which is what you appear to say in your original post, on the basis that a name appears to you to be catholic/non catholic.Of course look into the matter and ask questions,no one is saying that you shouldn't.
Regarding the "enlightened"  1800's I would say that there was more chance of a girl being named Elizabeth after John the Baptist's mother rather than the Queen Elizabeth. Just my opinion though 
Tony
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jj.carroll
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 80
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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 My grandfather was to return to Ireland, sometime around 1912. Either with or later, Agnes Bridget Gaffigan, who was born in San Francisco, followed him (they evidently had met in The City! a home to lots of Irishmen from Ulster) and they were married in St. Patrick's at Dundalk. We can't locate the Banns to tell us anything else about their wedding, which raised a number of questions that are not asked here.
They "probably" lived in Omagh because my father was born there in 1914, but moved to, or were residents of Fintona. Probable means you have to look further. They purchased the pub on Main Street which later was next door to McCarroll's Furniture. This could give the searcher a lead to begin her search because these McCarroll's were not from my immediate family and when they began their operation I really don't know.
My grandparent’s public house was also used for auctioneering of horses, sale of shoes in the room under the stairs, and the sale of coffins. Francis McAtee later bought the place when my grandfather became ill and was to die in 1924. The obituary from the Tyrone Constitution gives clues to cousins and others in attendance, but there will be no females listed in that era.
There were a number of McCarroll's that lived in Fintona around the 1920's (if we were in that century), as there were lots also living around Eskra (which is the unofficial placename for most of the Catholic parish - although Newtown Saville more properly should be as it existed long before Eskragh came about). And a lot of them owned and operated public houses (one of my cousins owned a public house in Curr, and Andrew McCarroll owned the pub at the Bridge in Eskra).
School records are valuable for the search of ancestors. In fact there was another Maggie McCarroll, who was born around 1907, that went to school with my father in Fintona, and she also came from Eskra. I wonder which pub he owned as her father was also listed a publican in Fintona. Could there be any connection with this searcher? Heck, we really don't know. Well, if that wasn't a relative, how about Mary McCarroll who entered school at age 11 from Mountstewart (that is a townland south of Fintona) that came from Legmaghery and her father was a farmer. She also went to school with my father, but probably was not in the same grade (but she had a sister Rose!).
In looking at census data, you really have to know what it is that you are looking for. For example, the addresses are not the same thing that we have here in the states, and most probably in Fintona. Take the 1901 census for Corkhill which shows two entries for the Devin's (sic) and two for McCarroll's. (Devin is the Ulster pronunciation for Devine and they are cousins, or “friends” according to the late Maggie Tyghe.) But their "addresses" were given as "1 and 2" and "11 and 12". That may relate only to when the households were visited by the census enumerator. Catherine McCarroll, my great great grandmother lived at "number 11" for the 1901 census but it was a different “address” number for the Griffith's "census."
O. K., what does this all mean?
Simply, there is no easy way to look for your ancestors. You piece together one thing and then another and finally come to a conclusion that perhaps this is the way to go. Then something else comes into focus that leads into another direction. Over the years I have spent a lot of time and some money (and it is now a lot more if you do go that route) gathering what I could about the relatives that may live or had lived in that area. This searcher has only begun, and has a long way to go before she makes sense out of a lot of non-sense - but in the long run it is worth it, if for no other reason than just crossing out false leads.
I am now just looking at the various boards and comparing things to see if they would be fruitful, but with the knowledge that I am too old to really dig into the mess that someone who was raised in a Catholic family in Ireland started. It is fun, but never taken seriously.
That reminds me; watch out for the little things such as a journal that my grandmother's father kept. One of the cousins had it and gave some information to me that she believed because it was he that had written it down. He made up a lot of things, from his imagination - as well as whole cloth. Take it all with a grain of salt. But investigate, some of those silly little things that someone will swear is true may pay off.
Good Luck!
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Carroll, McCarroll, McCusker and McCosker from County Tyrone. Then there are Dillen for Derry, Gaffigan, McGaffigan, Crennan, and Amos. Now adding: Leonard, Berry, and Gahagan from Strokestown, County Roscommon, also Gahigan, Hounihan, and Whonohan and another branch of Carrolls from County Cork.
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jj.carroll
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 80
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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In order to put to rest some of the dialogue regarding first or Christian names, the Gaelic revival that took place in the late 1800's and early 1900's saw a return to fashion of many of the native Gaelic names that are drawn from the myths, legends and folklore of the Gaelic culture.
For example, the name of “Elizabeth” comes from the Hebrew and loosely means:
“…my God is satisfaction”.
By the way, Saint Elizabeth was mother of John the Baptist.
Eliza, Liz, Elsie and Elsa are among the many variants, but the Irish equivalent or translation would be: Eilís.
There was some explanation by a Jane Lyons in a 1999 journal called Breifne (Copyright, Jane Lyons, 1999) in an article edited by Brian De Breffny that those who are interested could look up. The URL for that article is:
myhome.ispdr.net.au/~mgrogan/cork/jane_names.htm
Jane Lyons (who is very popular on these boards) raises the point that there was some differentiation of those children born of “Irish” parents and their protestant counterparts. Some of the favorite Irish Roman Catholic “Christian”, or first names, at that time for girls included:
Mary, Catherine, Bridget, Honora, Margaret, Ellen, Anastasia, Johanna, Judith, Julia, Rosanna, Maryanne, Elizabeth and Jane. Less common were the names of Magdalen Monica and Theresa. Marcella was found in Ireland but was rare in England.
Favorite Protestant girl’s names seem to have been:
Mary, Sarah, Elizabeth, Eleanor, Lucy, Catherine, Susanna, Hannah, Margaret, Jane, Isabella, Frances and Alice. Less frequently: Barbara, Gertrude, Dorothea, Charlotte, Diana, Rebecca, Lydia, Race, Phoebe, Henrietta, Lettice, Ursula, Penelope, Esther and Heather.
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Carroll, McCarroll, McCusker and McCosker from County Tyrone. Then there are Dillen for Derry, Gaffigan, McGaffigan, Crennan, and Amos. Now adding: Leonard, Berry, and Gahagan from Strokestown, County Roscommon, also Gahigan, Hounihan, and Whonohan and another branch of Carrolls from County Cork.
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TF13
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 723
Emain Macha
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Some of the favorite Irish Roman Catholic “Christian”, or first names, at that time for girls included:
Mary, Catherine, Bridget, Honora, Margaret, Ellen, Anastasia, Johanna, Judith, Julia, Rosanna, Maryanne, Elizabeth and Jane.
Favorite Protestant girl’s names seem to have been:
Mary, Sarah, Elizabeth, Eleanor, Lucy, Catherine, Susanna, Hannah, Margaret, Jane, Isabella, Frances and Alice.
That was the point I was making jj;the name Elizabeth is not exclusive to any one religion.
Tony
by the way,there was an Agnes Gaffigan who arrived at Queenstown,26-july-1912,aged 23,aboard the White Star Line ship "Celtic".Her occupation looks something like stenographer,the word ends with grapher anyway.
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jj.carroll
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 80
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Tony, you have hit on something that we had searched and searched for, the arrival of Agnes Bridget Gaffigan. While it may not be the one, and because she was "of age" when she married, the question that could seal this mystery might be answered by asking if there was a Michael Joesph Carroll, or McCarroll as the case may be, that arrived with her.
Inasmuch as I have been on various internet boards, and have had a number of computer crashes and different providers, I cannot recall just when I had posted the inquiry regarding their marriage. But it is somewhere, and the problem came about because we did not know how it was they got married in Dundalk when all of their connections were here in Tyrone.
It gives me something more to look for to settle, maybe, the question of how she came over to get married.
jj
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Carroll, McCarroll, McCusker and McCosker from County Tyrone. Then there are Dillen for Derry, Gaffigan, McGaffigan, Crennan, and Amos. Now adding: Leonard, Berry, and Gahagan from Strokestown, County Roscommon, also Gahigan, Hounihan, and Whonohan and another branch of Carrolls from County Cork.
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jj.carroll
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 80
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Tony, and the Board.
One of the reasons why I could not find information on my posting was that it resided in the County Louth board. Because there is so much going on in these Irish questions and look-ups it is hard to recall just where you could post.
At least here we have found that particular thread and can pursue it as far as it may reach - which may not give us satisfactory answers. But, like I have said, the search is still interesting, informative and quite satisfying.
This posting was to Louth because that was where they were married and we were looking for the Banns.
Again, thak you Tony.
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Carroll, McCarroll, McCusker and McCosker from County Tyrone. Then there are Dillen for Derry, Gaffigan, McGaffigan, Crennan, and Amos. Now adding: Leonard, Berry, and Gahagan from Strokestown, County Roscommon, also Gahigan, Hounihan, and Whonohan and another branch of Carrolls from County Cork.
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