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Topic: The Lewis Conundrum - update 2, possible chink in the wall! (Read 620 times)
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kathb
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 351
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Please can anyone give me any advice on trying to sort out this conundrum?
Joseph Lewis born Helsby 1777 married Mary Okell at Great Budworth in 1807
The IGI and verified in the Parish Register shows the following offspring
Samuel born 1808
Robert born 1810 (my ggg grandfather)
Mary born 1812
On the 1841 Samuel and Robert are residing in Rushton and Spurstow respectively
I know that Samuel went on to be the Inn Keeper of the Alvanley Arms (and this shows on the current website of this hostelry, later census and his Will). It also shows that Joseph Lewis was the publican in 1822 – I have verified this with the licence from Cheshire Archives and Record Office.
On the 1841 census as a publican, Coat Brook, Rushton, (ages rounded down) there is:
Mary 25, Ann 25, Margaret 20, Sarah 15, Frances 15, John 15, Richard 14
Initially I wondered if this was more of the same family, given the name Mary and the connection with Coat Brook (Cotebrook) later on.
However the Parish Register for Tarporley St.Helens shows the following:
Joseph son of Joseph and Mary Oct 28th 1813 father Inn Keeper, Coat Brook
Ann daughter of Joseph and Elizabeth 1st March 1815 father Inn Keeper, Coat Brook
Margaret daughter of Joseph and Elizabeth 13th September 1816, father Inn Keeper Coat Brook
Elizabeth daughter of Joseph and Mary 15th March 1817 father Inn Keeper Coat Brook
Fanny and Sarah daughters of Joseph and Elizabeth 14th March 1826, father Inn Keeper Coat Brook
John son of Joseph and Elizabeth 14th March 1826, father Inn Keeper Coat Brook
The pub website states that Samuel was a cousin of Joseph. However my Samuel was a son of a Joseph.
There was only one pub in the hamlet. Joseph senior did not remarry. Mary his wife died 9th June 1831 aged 40, Joseph died 23rd October 1840 aged 63.
There is with out doubt a strong family connection here for the following reasons:
Margaret had a son Samuel Lewis Edwards, who was brought up at the pub and spent the whole of his life there with Samuel Lewis the Inn Keeper and later his widow and then his son.
Census data shows Frances Franks (nee Lewis) also resided at the pub in 1851 and also a John Lewis. These are siblings of Margaret.
So, would there be two Joseph’s related but both described as running the pub as one Joseph is married to a Mary and the other to an Elizabeth? I did initially wonder if Joseph had married twice, but as you can see from the dates Mary was alive until 1831. The timing of the childrens births makes it very difficult to believe that the curate/vicar got the name of the mother wrong and certainly not on several occasions. I then wondered if my Joseph was the father of the second Joseph, but he names a son Joseph in 1813.
Ideas welcome.
Thanks
Kathb
P.S. I did wonder if Joseph senior (1777) might have been married before Mary as he would have been 30 when he married her. Can anyone see any possible first marriage possibly Frodsham but could also be Cheshire?
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« Last Edit: Saturday 21 November 09 17:06 UTC (UK) by kathb »
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Census information is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBaker/Cheshire,Crewe/Somerset Davies/Calvert/Cheshire, Birkenhead/Yorkshire, Bowes Fitzsimmons/Cheshire, Birkenhead/Lancashire, Liverpool/Ireland Lewis/Cheshire,Spurstow, Bunbury, Little Budworth, Helsby/Birkenhead Mackay/Mckay Caithness Anderson/, Caithness Dunnet, Caithness Mowat/ Caithness Gunn/ Caithness Smith/Caithness, Dunnet, Thurso, Castletown Rosie/Caithness, Thurso Sadlier Forster/Liverpool/Ireland, Cork |
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liverbird09
RootsChat Member
Posts: 226
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Hi kathb,
Phew, I see your problem. Just spent a while checking various options. 
Do you think you have 2 families mixed together?
In my family tree I have a publican listed in 1841 census. I found out she didn't have a pub as such, she was listed as a beerseller in the Chester trade directory. A lot of people opened up their own homes as inns at that time in Chester.
Just a thought, maybe your 1841 with Mary, Ann, Margaret, Sarah Frances and John(triplets?) Richard, are a different family to the one you are tracing.
I found a Joseph Lewis married Elizabeth Chesters 1823 Malpas.
Another Joseph married Elizabeth Sidlow 1800 Bebington?
Also your Joseph and Mary Okell with children Mary, Robert, Sam all bFrodsham.
I hope I haven't confused you further.
Good luck with it.
Jean
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kathb
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 351
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Jean, thanks for spending time on this.
on the 1841 they are all in the same household, although not the same family as the baptisms show different mothers there is obviously some strong family connection here. The three baptisms were on the same day, but some families did have the children baptised as a 'job lot'. I also have found the marriages that you did. I have ruled out the Eliz Chesters as a mother as the majority of these births are pre- 1823. I haven't followed up on the Eliz Sidlow marriage but will look next time I am in the Record office. Its one of those puzzles that will take some time. Frances also shows on her marriage certificate of 1841 that her father is Joseph Lewis, Inn Keeper. It does look as if there are two Joseph's who are related for Samuel to 'take in' the son of Margaret and give a job to John. He later on gives a job to my GG Uncle William so this again proves the families are interlinked in some way. I am going to try to see if I can find if Joseph seniors father Richard had a siblings or nephews with the name Joseph. I am fast running out of options.
Once again thank you for your time I really appreciate any ideas Rootschatters may have.
Regards
Kathb
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Census information is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBaker/Cheshire,Crewe/Somerset Davies/Calvert/Cheshire, Birkenhead/Yorkshire, Bowes Fitzsimmons/Cheshire, Birkenhead/Lancashire, Liverpool/Ireland Lewis/Cheshire,Spurstow, Bunbury, Little Budworth, Helsby/Birkenhead Mackay/Mckay Caithness Anderson/, Caithness Dunnet, Caithness Mowat/ Caithness Gunn/ Caithness Smith/Caithness, Dunnet, Thurso, Castletown Rosie/Caithness, Thurso Sadlier Forster/Liverpool/Ireland, Cork |
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liverbird09
RootsChat Member
Posts: 226
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After taking another look, it has certainly got me foxed. 
The day to day running of the Alvanley would need a lot of staff, so I guess they would keep it in the family. I had a peek at the history to see if it helped, it is intriguing isn't it?
I would be interested to know the outcome, these family knots take some fathoming.
I'm sure someone on RC will be able to unravel it for you.
Jean
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kathb
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 351
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thanks Jean, there has to be an answer here somewhere. I am hoping someone has more lateral thinking than me and can give me some new clues or hints of were to look.
Thanks for your time and interest
Regards
Kathb
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Census information is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBaker/Cheshire,Crewe/Somerset Davies/Calvert/Cheshire, Birkenhead/Yorkshire, Bowes Fitzsimmons/Cheshire, Birkenhead/Lancashire, Liverpool/Ireland Lewis/Cheshire,Spurstow, Bunbury, Little Budworth, Helsby/Birkenhead Mackay/Mckay Caithness Anderson/, Caithness Dunnet, Caithness Mowat/ Caithness Gunn/ Caithness Smith/Caithness, Dunnet, Thurso, Castletown Rosie/Caithness, Thurso Sadlier Forster/Liverpool/Ireland, Cork |
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Gene Hunter
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 25
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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On the 1851 census Samuel is still at Coat Brook, Rushton aged 43, a farmer of 3 acres, born Helsby with his wife Alice 42, born Rushton also present is a John Lewis 30, servant(farm labourer), born Rushton.
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Hollinshead, Davies, Cotterill, Ashford, Ravenscroft, Sharrett, Lewis, Needham, Bolshaw, Nield, Tomkinson, Bowyer
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kathb
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 351
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Thanks Genehunter, I have all of the census and bmd records, I just can't find the link with the two Joseph's
Regards
Kathb
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Census information is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBaker/Cheshire,Crewe/Somerset Davies/Calvert/Cheshire, Birkenhead/Yorkshire, Bowes Fitzsimmons/Cheshire, Birkenhead/Lancashire, Liverpool/Ireland Lewis/Cheshire,Spurstow, Bunbury, Little Budworth, Helsby/Birkenhead Mackay/Mckay Caithness Anderson/, Caithness Dunnet, Caithness Mowat/ Caithness Gunn/ Caithness Smith/Caithness, Dunnet, Thurso, Castletown Rosie/Caithness, Thurso Sadlier Forster/Liverpool/Ireland, Cork |
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Gardener
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1607
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It is like one of those horrid maths problems that they used to give us for "fun" in the last week of term!!
I just have a load of questions I am afraid:
1. Do you know who was named on Joseph's death (1840) certificate?
2. Is it certain that Mary who took over the pub 1840-43 was the daughter of Joseph who had it previously? Is that recorded on the licence, a will, or what?
3. How reliable is the information that Samuel was a cousin? Cousin of whom?
Just wondering, if the pub was run by Joseph-married-to-Elizabeth and when he died his sons were too young to take it on so it passed to the care of Samuel (a cousin) who had enough doing with his farm so had his sister Mary step in as landlady, then when she married Samuel took it on.
Is there no will from Joseph anywhere?
Are there any estate records which list all the tenants and give two Josephs? that is the tricky bit isn't it? Two of them both innkeepers in the same tiny place!
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 Rose (Black Country),Downs (Black Country),Wolloxall (any and all),Bark (Derbyshire),Wright (Derbyshire),Marsden (Derbyshire), Wallace (Black Country) All census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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kathb
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 351
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Hi, Gardener, yes it is like one of those maths problems and I was never any good at maths.
You have however made me think at bit more outside the box. I will send for the death cert of Joseph died 1840. The parish records show he was aged 63 so born 1777 which fits as father of Samuel.
I think your idea of the pub passing to Samuel is quite pertinent. I can't find a Will for a Joseph death that fits. I really need to find a marriage for a Joseph and Elizabeth which fits with the younger children at the Inn. This might then lead me back to the parents of Joseph number 2 and how this connects with Joseph number 1.
I am at the Record Office in Chester tomorrow and will continue my search through the parish records to see what I can find. Thanks for your time on this and giving me some more questions to pursue. I will let everyone know if I find any more information.
Regards
Kathb
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Census information is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBaker/Cheshire,Crewe/Somerset Davies/Calvert/Cheshire, Birkenhead/Yorkshire, Bowes Fitzsimmons/Cheshire, Birkenhead/Lancashire, Liverpool/Ireland Lewis/Cheshire,Spurstow, Bunbury, Little Budworth, Helsby/Birkenhead Mackay/Mckay Caithness Anderson/, Caithness Dunnet, Caithness Mowat/ Caithness Gunn/ Caithness Smith/Caithness, Dunnet, Thurso, Castletown Rosie/Caithness, Thurso Sadlier Forster/Liverpool/Ireland, Cork |
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Gene Hunter
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 25
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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There are two marriages that may be of interest
Joseph Lewis = Elizabeth Sibley 31/03/1800, Bebbington, St. Andrew both otp by licence Wit. John Sibley, Margaret Davies
Joseph Lewis = Elizabeth Chesters 23/10/1823, Malpas, St. Oswald
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Hollinshead, Davies, Cotterill, Ashford, Ravenscroft, Sharrett, Lewis, Needham, Bolshaw, Nield, Tomkinson, Bowyer
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Gene Hunter
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 25
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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There is also
Joseph Lewis = Martha Brookes 15/7/1798, Bunbury
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Hollinshead, Davies, Cotterill, Ashford, Ravenscroft, Sharrett, Lewis, Needham, Bolshaw, Nield, Tomkinson, Bowyer
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kathb
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 351
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Hi, Genehunter, just back from the Registrars Office having ordered Joseph Lewis died 1840 death certificate. I will look up the marriages that you have found at the Chester Records and Archives tomorrow.
What is really throwing me with this conundrum is the two Joseph Lewis Inn Keepers in the same vicinity with all of their offspring living in the same pub in 1841.
On several of the census data Samuel obviously gives jobs to the offspring of Joseph and Elizabeth although he is the son of Joseph and Mary.
Another thought I had was that maybe (and its a very big longshot here) is that Mary had another name being Elizabeth. Something that I did not note when I transcribed the parish registers was whether it was the same minister who recorded all of the births. I am going to recheck this tomorrow. If they were say- the curate recorded the births of Joseph and Elizabeth's children and the vicar recorded the births of Joseph and Mary's children (or vice versa) this could be a 'clerical error' - sorry for the pun.
Unfortunately for me Mary Lewis nee Okell, died before civil registration and the parish records do not state the husband. I need to locate her birth. If she is the one I picked up on the IGI she may be the one born 1790. I need to see if her baptism record on the parish records shows any other names.
This really is a wonderful puzzle, which I am determined to crack.
I will also look again at the quarter session records to see if I can find more than one licence issued to a Joseph Lewis in the vicinity. I found the one Joseph in 1822 quite near the top of the records and if I had my thinking hat on would have continued to look through all of them for that year.
Do you know if civil registration marriage certificates always showed if the father of the bride was deceased? The ones I have for Margaret and Frances both state Joseph Inn Keeper and don't show him as deceased. Frances marriage was in 1841 and Margaret in 1849. This could help in my search. If their father Joseph was still alive on these dates it might help in the search and completely rule out Joseph who died in 1840 as their father.
Any help very much appreciated.
Regards
Kathb
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Census information is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBaker/Cheshire,Crewe/Somerset Davies/Calvert/Cheshire, Birkenhead/Yorkshire, Bowes Fitzsimmons/Cheshire, Birkenhead/Lancashire, Liverpool/Ireland Lewis/Cheshire,Spurstow, Bunbury, Little Budworth, Helsby/Birkenhead Mackay/Mckay Caithness Anderson/, Caithness Dunnet, Caithness Mowat/ Caithness Gunn/ Caithness Smith/Caithness, Dunnet, Thurso, Castletown Rosie/Caithness, Thurso Sadlier Forster/Liverpool/Ireland, Cork |
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Gene Hunter
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 25
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi,
The Joseph and Martha of Bunbury can be eiminated, they lived and died in Bunbury. The father of the bride or groom on marriage certificates if dead is not always registered as such.
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Hollinshead, Davies, Cotterill, Ashford, Ravenscroft, Sharrett, Lewis, Needham, Bolshaw, Nield, Tomkinson, Bowyer
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kathb
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 351
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Hi, Genehunter, I am still on the search. I will let Rootschatters know any results I find after my search tommorrow at the Cheshire Archives/Record office
Regards
Kathb
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Census information is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBaker/Cheshire,Crewe/Somerset Davies/Calvert/Cheshire, Birkenhead/Yorkshire, Bowes Fitzsimmons/Cheshire, Birkenhead/Lancashire, Liverpool/Ireland Lewis/Cheshire,Spurstow, Bunbury, Little Budworth, Helsby/Birkenhead Mackay/Mckay Caithness Anderson/, Caithness Dunnet, Caithness Mowat/ Caithness Gunn/ Caithness Smith/Caithness, Dunnet, Thurso, Castletown Rosie/Caithness, Thurso Sadlier Forster/Liverpool/Ireland, Cork |
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kathb
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 351
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Hello to all the Rootschatters who are trying to help me on this.
Just to update you
Yesterday I searched all of the Tarporley St Helens registers for all the Lewis's and noted them all - a mere 5 hours! On the film I found a 'notebook' completed by the vicar. In this he states that the parents of Joseph born 1813 are noted as Joseph and Elizabeth but on the registers noted as Joseph and Mary. However all of the births are written in the register by the curate, so who is right?
I also rechecked who had recorded all of the births and it was the same curate.
I could not find a marriage for a Joseph and Elizabeth in Tarporley so need to widen the search - now going to try Little Budworth on my next visit to the archives in two weeks.
I know that there is a Joseph Lewis on the Tithe Maps of Cheshire who had quite large farm tenancies, which of the Joseph's he is I don't know. I am now going to send for the Wills of all of the Joseph Lewis's regardless of year of death in the hope that there may a clue in them somewhere.
I also could not find a marriage for any of the girls (other than the ones for Frances and Margaret - of which I have copies of their Marriage Certificates) again I need to widen the search.
I couldn't find Burial records for Mary and Sarah either.
I checked the Aston Parish Register for the birth of Mary Okell wife of Joseph number 1 and she does not have another name recorded so I don't thinks she was ever known as Elizabeth.
The marriage of Joseph with Elizabeth Chesters in Malpas in 1823 doesn't help much at the moment. It does show that this Joseph was of the parish of marbury.
I now await the copy of Joseph Lewis (number 1) Death Cert to see if that sheds any light on this conundrum.
P.S this is not a hobby it is an obssession!!!
Regards and thanks for all of the help.
Kathb
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Census information is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBaker/Cheshire,Crewe/Somerset Davies/Calvert/Cheshire, Birkenhead/Yorkshire, Bowes Fitzsimmons/Cheshire, Birkenhead/Lancashire, Liverpool/Ireland Lewis/Cheshire,Spurstow, Bunbury, Little Budworth, Helsby/Birkenhead Mackay/Mckay Caithness Anderson/, Caithness Dunnet, Caithness Mowat/ Caithness Gunn/ Caithness Smith/Caithness, Dunnet, Thurso, Castletown Rosie/Caithness, Thurso Sadlier Forster/Liverpool/Ireland, Cork |
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