Lemontree
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 286
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Dowie
« on: Monday 02 November 09 17:23 UTC (UK) » |
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I have been searching for Robert Dowie's place of birth for some time - I recently found his marriage in Plumstead in 1818 but it just states that he was of the parish - not sure if he was living there at the time of the marriage or born there.
I don't seem to be able to find him on the 1851 census, he would have been a widower by this time as his wife died in 1846 - he died in the asylum at Wandsworth in 1853 and I don't know when he was admitted - the 1851 census would show his place of birth - wouldn't it?
This has been ongoing for a few years now  I would love to find his birth place to take things further..... 
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nigelp
RootsChat Member
Posts: 241
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Re: Dowie
« Reply #1 on: Monday 02 November 09 17:26 UTC (UK) » |
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Do you know the approximate year in which he was born (eg from the age on his Death Certificate)?
Nigel
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Alcock (Ashill), Barber (Chilcompton), Breeze (Ovington), Carey (Salisbury and Warminster), Collacott (Combe Martin and Shebbear), Creamer (North Elmham), Goss (Bristol and Combe Martin), Musselwhite (Britford and Downton), Sparkes (North Elmham), Thorogood (Little Hallingbury), Turner (Codford, Salisbury and Warminster), Wakefield (Briston and Hindolveston)
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lizdb
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9415
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Re: Dowie
« Reply #2 on: Monday 02 November 09 17:27 UTC (UK) » |
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Have you got him in 1841 with his wife?
If yuo need help looking, can you give us wifes name?
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Lemontree
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 286
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Re: Dowie
« Reply #4 on: Monday 02 November 09 17:38 UTC (UK) » |
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His death certificate states he was 69 years old when he died in 1853, his wifes name was Ann
He was a stone mason on the baptism register for his occupation on baptism records and a stone masons labourer on his death certificate. He was living in camberwell in the parish of St Giles when his children where baptised in 1825 for the last son.
I havn't been able to find him on either census - I wonder is Dowie gets transcribed worng due to the D looking like an O and the O looking like an A?
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Lemontree
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 286
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Re: Dowie
« Reply #7 on: Monday 02 November 09 17:44 UTC (UK) » |
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I have George Dowie his son on the 1841 census they have two sons - George and his wife Elizabeth (clarrissa) but Robert is not with them - even though the son is named after him.
The 1841 census doesn't give the place of birth - it just ticks yes or no for county born or not... 
If I could find the county Robert was born then I could find the baptism - hopefully that is the plan, its just not finding him in 51..
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lizdb
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9415
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Re: Dowie
« Reply #9 on: Monday 02 November 09 17:47 UTC (UK) » |
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Not just you - it is driving me MAD!
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Valda
Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9742
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Re: Dowie
« Reply #10 on: Monday 02 November 09 23:47 UTC (UK) » |
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Hi
There are extensive patient records for Surrey County Lunatic Asylum now Springfield Hospital.
The records have bounced about a bit between the LMA and the Surrey History Centre but last time I checked the patient case books they were at the Surrey History Centre.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/hospitalrecords/details.asp?id=24&hospital=springfield+hospital&town=&searchdatabase.x=67&searchdatabase.y=10
The patient case books will give you the date Robert entered the asylum and whether he was moved to 'Springfield' from another asylum. Patients often appear as intials on censuses and birthplaces may not be given. Ages can be out a bit and even names. Depending how long the patient has been in the asylum and what condition they suffered from the staff weren't going to be able to find out from many of them where they were born or what age they thought they were and the staff were not going to search all the patients casebooks just to try and find out something nearer what they thought their age might be just for a census entry. Patient records aren't genealogy files so details such as where born aren't going to be there, though the Victorians were very keen to try and track back mental illness (and their understanding of mental illness often included illnesses that were physical in origin such as epilepsy) to a genetic issue so often another related family member might be mentioned as also having suffered from depression, delusion, dissipation etc.
This appears to be the family on the 1841 census. Adult ages, those over 15 are usually rounded down to the nearest 5 on the 1841 census.
1841 census HO107 1065/11 folio 24
Bedford Street St Mary Newington
Robert Dowen 50 Mason Scotland
Ann Dowen 50 Not born Surrey
Caroline Dowen 15 Boot B? Born Surrey
George Dowen 15 M apr born Surrey
Could actually be written as Dowie but the i is not dotted.
Caroline Matilda Dowie their daughter married at St Mary Newington in 1846. Robert Dowie was one of the witnesses. An Ann Dowie aged 63 was buried at St Peter Walworth the other main church in Newington in 1848. Like Caroline Matilda her address was Manchester Buildings. Robert is not living in Manchester Buildings Newington in 1851 and there is no evidence of a Robert born in Scotland in Surrey that would seem to fit for him which would lend more weight to the fact he was probably a patient by the time of that census.
The IGI has quite a few Robert Dowie baptisms circa 1782 all in Scotland.
Regards
Valda
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Lemontree
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 286
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Re: Dowie
« Reply #11 on: Tuesday 03 November 09 17:56 UTC (UK) » |
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Thank you so much for this information, The fact the 1841 census has that Robert was born in Scotland helps a great deal.
The fact that Robert was a witness at his daughters wedding in 1846 gives me a date that he was not in an asylum.
I have already emailed the history center and will probably go down soon and have a search for the case note - I have a good idea of what they will and will not contain as I have seen a few from other asylums at this time.
George was my great great grandfather.
thank you again it was very kind of you
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ejam
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 3
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Re: Dowie
« Reply #12 on: Thursday 05 November 09 13:19 UTC (UK) » |
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Hi Lemontree,
I have just picked up your thread on Robert Dowie and was pleased to find the post from Valda with the missing 1841 census showing Robert to be a Scot. Thank you Valda!
My connection is through the unknown wife Ann, who is my direct g-g-g-grandmother by her first marriage to William Howard 1784-1817. I have been collaborating for some time with a Dowie descendent in Sydney, Australia who was also seeking the Scottish connection.
I am still trying to find Ann's maiden name before her first marriage. She married Robert in 1818 and they continued living in the Howard home in Charles Street before going to Rumcoll Street,Cottage Gardens in Camberwell and then presumably to the 1841 census address in Lambeth.
I have a private member tree with ancestry.co.uk which holds records for both Howard and Dowie families. Are you a member? If so I can invite you to view if you give me your tree name.
Regards, ejam.
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ejam
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 3
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Re: Dowie
« Reply #13 on: Thursday 05 November 09 22:34 UTC (UK) » |
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Hallo Jane,
very pleased to hear from you and that you have been in contact with Ralph. I haven't been able to reply directly to your message because I am either too challenged by the system (thick) or it is not working,,,,,couldn't find a reply box to tick!
I have today found a liitle further back, finding a Robert Dowie, son of Robert Dowie a mason, in Blebo Craigs, Kemback in Fife. It ticks all the boxes so far but I continue the search.
You didn't say whether or not you subscribe to Ancestry. Do let me know.
Really good to make another contact,
best regards,
Alan Howard.
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Valda
Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9742
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Re: Dowie
« Reply #14 on: Friday 06 November 09 10:05 UTC (UK) » |
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Hi
You must have posted three times before you can pm (personal message) or receive personal messages.
The burial of William Howard 2nd July 1817 was at St Mary Magdalene Woolwich. He was of Charles Street.
That connects the William Howard baptism at the same church 17th September 1815 born 5th April to the same couple since it is the same address. The baptism gives William's occupation as pensioner of artillery. As a 33 year old pensioner he seems to young to have earned his pension through the necessary length of service (21 years) so you might expect that he had gained the pension through a serious disability caused by being wounded. His military records would give his service and help to narrow down the window/s for the marriage to Ann. Have you found any further children from the marriage?
I also wouldn't discount as a possibility that Robert Dowie also served in the military for a short time. There was a tradition of soldiers marrying their fellow soldiers widows. It might also explain how he came to be in London.
Regards
Valda
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