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Topic: Parish boundaries - how did they come into being? (Read 673 times)
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kerryb
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 11981
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I was looking at some of the Sussex parishes yesterday fitting some ancestors in and my partner was looking over my shoulder and we were discussing the weird shapes and sizes of some of the parishes round here.
I would like to know more about how they became this way with odd bits and pieces and realise I know very little about the beginning of parishes except I think it was about King Henry VIII's time.
Does anyone know of a good book or website that explains about parishes and how they came to be so that I read up a bit more?
Kerry
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukSearching for my family - Baldwin - Sussex, Middlesex, Cork, Pilbeam - Sussex, Harmer - Sussex, Terry - Surrey, Kent, Rhoades - Lincs, Roffey - Surrey, Traies - Devon & Middlesex & many many more to be found on my website .... www.kerrysfamilyhistory.co.uk |
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MKG
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 558
Warts and all, they're all mine.
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Are you talking about church parish or civic parish? - the two are not (necessarily) the same.
Church parishes precede Henry VIII by an awfully long time - some of them are traceable to before the Norman Conquest. Most, though (although many have been adjusted) are traceable to land grants made to the family retainers of noble families between 1100 and 1200. The retainer built a church on his land and pronounced it the centre of his holding (it couldn't serve anyone else's land, could it?), and there you are - a parish.
If you look around for the Cartulary of any local monastery, you'll be able to see how the parishes were built up and modified by other land grants.
Mike
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Griffiths, Howard, Johnson, McLeod, Rizz(a)(i)(o)
Berwick (Tweedmouth and Spittal), Blyth(N'land) between the wars, Wrexham, Tattersett
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kerryb
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 11981
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See I said I didn't know much about them. From what you say I am talking about church parishes and I didn't realise, although it makes sense, they had been around before Henry.
Your explanation of how the parish came into being around the church may well explain why some parishes that we were looking at in East Sussex had bits disconnected or were weird shapes, if it land owned by one family, I guess they may well have owned bits of land further down the road for instance.
By the way what's a Cartulary?
Kerry
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukSearching for my family - Baldwin - Sussex, Middlesex, Cork, Pilbeam - Sussex, Harmer - Sussex, Terry - Surrey, Kent, Rhoades - Lincs, Roffey - Surrey, Traies - Devon & Middlesex & many many more to be found on my website .... www.kerrysfamilyhistory.co.uk |
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MKG
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 558
Warts and all, they're all mine.
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Your guess at why some parishes have disconnected outliers is spot on, Kerry.
A Cartulary (sorry, I always make assumptions) is a collection of official papers. All monasteries had an Abbot's or Prior's Court, and the relevant Cartulary is a record of its proceedings - so every single land transaction which fell under the jusrisdiction of that court ended up in the Cartulary. A lot of the records are of people making "gifts" of land to a church, and a lot of those were to pay for the vicar. But if the vicar was to draw a tithe from land, it had to become part of his parish. So, disjointed bits were added, sometimes a bit of a village was added (the rest remaining in another parish), etc.
It's pretty dry reading, but you can find some real gems
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Griffiths, Howard, Johnson, McLeod, Rizz(a)(i)(o)
Berwick (Tweedmouth and Spittal), Blyth(N'land) between the wars, Wrexham, Tattersett
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stanmapstone
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 6613
My answers only refer to England and Wales
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The term Parish is derived from the Anglo-Saxon parochium, the missionary territory of a Minster. Dating from the ninth and tenth centuries, when the parish churches superseded the minster system. Many of the first parish churches were provided by Saxon Lords, the boundaries of whose estates invariably corresponded with those of the parishes, and by Anglo-Norman lords who created small parishes which were often conterminous with the equally new units of manor or knight's fee.
From "The English Parish Church" by Stephen Friar
Stan
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kerryb
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 11981
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Thanks guys
I'm finding this very interesting, its not something I've really spared much thought for before but as I trace the journeys of my ancestors around my local area I am beginning to think more about it.
For instance I mistakenly thought that because one ancestor appeared on one of the census records in Wartling, he actually lived in the village but it turned out he was at a farm some miles from the village which I would have thought actually belonged to the next parish but doesn't. so started to look at parish maps and began to see that the parishes are around here in East Sussex are quite complex and sprawling.
Some of the boundaries also seem to follow contours of hills and rivers as well as roads or what must have been at that time trackways.
I also reading somewhere that some of the parishes around Lewes in Sussex are very long and thin taking in a bit of the Downs and at the bottom some fields of the Weald allowing sheep to be kept on the Downs and crops to be grown at the bottom.
Fascinating stuff!
Kerry
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukSearching for my family - Baldwin - Sussex, Middlesex, Cork, Pilbeam - Sussex, Harmer - Sussex, Terry - Surrey, Kent, Rhoades - Lincs, Roffey - Surrey, Traies - Devon & Middlesex & many many more to be found on my website .... www.kerrysfamilyhistory.co.uk |
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MKG
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 558
Warts and all, they're all mine.
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The term Parish is derived from the Anglo-Saxon parochium, the missionary territory of a Minster. Dating from the ninth and tenth centuries, when the parish churches superseded the minster system. Many of the first parish churches were provided by Saxon Lords, the boundaries of whose estates invariably corresponded with those of the parishes, and by Anglo-Norman lords who created small parishes which were often conterminous with the equally new units of manor or knight's fee.
From "The English Parish Church" by Stephen Friar
Stan
Ah, beware scholars who are too hasty with their pens, Stan  . Mr Friar got it wrong.
Parochium is a late Latin word. The Old English word for parish is "preostscyr" (pronounced prayost-shire) meaning, literally, the shire of a priest.
Picky, I know.
Mike
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Griffiths, Howard, Johnson, McLeod, Rizz(a)(i)(o)
Berwick (Tweedmouth and Spittal), Blyth(N'land) between the wars, Wrexham, Tattersett
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stanmapstone
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 6613
My answers only refer to England and Wales
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This is part of what the OED has for the etymology of Parish
Although the parochial system was more or less developed in many (perhaps most) parts of England before the year 1000, there is no word formed from parochia, nor any directly answering to it, in Old English; the nearest equivalents being preostscyr (< PRIEST n. + SHIRE n.), attested once in the Old English translation of Theodulf of Orleans Capitula (translating Latin parochia), and męssepreostscyr (< MASS-PRIEST n. + SHIRE n.), also attested once in the same work (again translating Latin parochia);
Stan
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Skoosh
RootsChat Member
Posts: 134
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Chaps, don't know if Scotland's parish boundaries are pre-conquest as we never had one!....Skoosh.
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MKG
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 558
Warts and all, they're all mine.
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And yet it is included in Bosworth's Dictionary of Old English, still the most comprehensive work on Old English in existence. There is a host of Old English words which appear only once in the literature - predominantly because Old English documents are remarkably thin on the ground rather than because the words were never used. The fact that the translator of Capitula should have used the word tends to be evidence that it was in use - and there must have been a word because the parish was part of the daily lives of pre-Conquest Old English speakers.
However, interesting as this discussion is (maybe there should be a local history section in Rootschat), I think I've been guilty of thread hijacking as we're discussing the origin of words whereas the thread is about the origin of parish boundaries, on which I think we all agree. Sorry, Kerry 
Pax!
Mike
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Griffiths, Howard, Johnson, McLeod, Rizz(a)(i)(o)
Berwick (Tweedmouth and Spittal), Blyth(N'land) between the wars, Wrexham, Tattersett
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Maggie.
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1240
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At the moment I'm reading a book by one of our local historians, John A. Clayton, on The History of Pendle Forest (Lancashire).
In a passage on the ownership of Lands he says that: 'Ecclesiastical parishes of pre-Norman times were generally made up of a number of townships, often with a detached portion of the parish showing that the land-use requirements had changed. Larger parishes were well defined by natural boundaries such as rivers and can be seen to conform to areas covered by secular estates when the tithe system became accepted as the norm during the 10th century'.
It's all very complex but fascinating.
Maggie
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ROSTHORN - Blackburn, Accrington 18/19C; TAYLOR - Accrington, Goodshaw, Edgworth 18/19C; HARGREAVES - Midgley, Southowram, Halifax; KIDD - Knaresborough, York; SIMONETT - Sheffield, Bradford, poss. French Huguenot; NICHOLSON and JARDINE - Tinwald, Dumfriesshire, ENTWISTLE - Edgworth; LOWE - Edgeworth; GILL - Accrington, Liverpool, Blackburn all 18/19C. ~~~~~~ Census info. Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.go |
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stanmapstone
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 6613
My answers only refer to England and Wales
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The History Data Service have produced "The Historic Parishes of England & Wales" an Electronic Map of boundaries before 1850, with a Gazetteer, and Metadata. The book supplied with the data has a detailed introduction on parish boundaries. The LDS has boundaries for 1851 at http://maps.familysearch.org/ although some of the boundaries are approximate.
Stan
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Springbok
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 958
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Genuki has this link to individual Parishes with maps
http://www.rootschat.com/links/07ex/
Spring
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Dorset: Ackerman,Bungey,Bunter Chant,Hyle
Islington:Bedford, Eaton,Wilkins
Beds,Fulham: Brazier
Shoreditch: Burton,Coverdale
Essex ,Clerkenwell:Craswell,Cresswell
St.Lukes Middx:Doughty, Dunkley
Andover/IOW/Fulham:Gasser
Fulham: Neal
Bucks:Putnam,Wingrove
Bullwell.Notts:Wilkinson
Clerkenwell/Islington:Wyllie
Herts/ Tottenham/Walthamstow:Young
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