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Topic: St. James Parish Sydney (Read 305 times)
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Vabre
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 420
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Would anyone know, if in 1856 the St. James C of E Church on the corner of King and Macquarie Streets, Sydney, opposite St. James Staion, was used by both the Anglican Church and the Catholic Church. I have a baptism certificate which shows the ceremony was conducted by S.A. Stanley, Roman Catholic, and now I am confused !!.
John...Sydney
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O'Halloran, Bryan (O'Brien) - Limerick.
Dower - Waterford. Ireland
Dodd - Kildare. Ireland
Cotter - Cork. Ireland
French, Clapson - Sussex. U.K.
Southwell - Robertsbridge, Sussex. U.K.
Pinning (Penning) - Lincolnshire. U.K.
Heath - Devon. U.K.
Bennett- Staffordshire. U.K.
Dodge - Kent. U.K
Coffey - Cork, Ireland.
Connolly- Meath
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PrueM
Global Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 7414
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Hi John,
I can't help you, but in case no-one else has any ideas, here is the contact page for the parish:
http://www.sjks.org.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=71&Itemid=82
Cheers
Prue
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Paper and Photograph Conservator
I live in NSW, and am researching:
BALFOUR (Derry) – BIGG (Kent) – BONSALL (DBY, NTT, CHS) – BRISBANE (Fife) – DANKS (STS) – DOBSON (BRK) – FRANCIS (ESS) – GOODE (HAM) – HAYNES (Cork) – INGRAM (MDX, SOM) – LANGWORTHY (Jersey, DEV) – MCKAY (Fife, Aberdeen, Banff, Moray) – MORRISH (LND) – NANCARROW (CON) – OGILVIE (Moray, LND) – STRATHDEE (LND, Banff) - SWAN (Fife)
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Just Moi
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1645
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Hi there,
That part of Sydney "Town" fell within both the C of E and the R C parishes of St James.... St James being patron saint of Spain....
I will try to find the exact location of the RC church of St James...
Cheers,
JM
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Just Moi
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1645
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Bit More,
According to the online index for NSW BDM, the Early Church Records Code of "L A" refers to the Roman Catholic St James while the Code of "C J" refers to the Church of England St James...
That doesn't really answer your question though, but I will get to my hardcopy of several baptisms from my own NSW forebears and have a good read of that part of each document, as I had some who were C of E and others who were R C.... - one of my sets of great great great grandparents had 16 children born in Sydney Town between 1845 and 1867, and another set had at least ten children....
I will be fascinated if it turns out that the historic C of E church of St James, almost opposite the Cathedral of St Marys (R C) was used by other denominations in the mid 19th Century.... as I HAVE NOT YET FOUND a separate R C church building on Macquarie Street in the 1850's..... (apart from St Marys  ) But I have found that the ECR code for "St James" was A C for Baptists, "G N" for Congregationalists, "J Q" for Presbyterians, and so on.
I do know that in earlier decades, bdm ceremonies were conducted in various Chapels by each denomination, but that then the curate/minister/priest would transmit a copy of that record to the Established Church for recording in the Colonial records etc, and that by the mid 1840's the NSW legislative council was addressing the poor recording of these events...
Cheers, JM
Could be a day or so before I can "advance the plot" but I have left a message on my cousin's message machine thingy to ask... he's a retired C of E minister with a keen interest on the ECRs and he has historic interest in early Sydney Town ...
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Just Moi
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1645
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Yes, yes, yes !!!
Vol 142A yes, RC !!! that's matching up with a couple of my lot with ten children ummmm !!!
Cheers, JM
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Vabre
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 420
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I had a look at the date, that is 1 January, 1857, and found that to be a Thursday. What a strange day to have a baptism.
Their abode was Kings Grove, Cooks River ( now just Kingsgrove) and to travel a distance in those times for a baptism when the child was born just 17 days previous, in the summer seems odd to me.
I think that S.A.Stanley, the person who performed the ceremony and stated as Roman Catholic, was possibly a "circuit" priest, for the child would have been born at home.
It's a long ways to walk from Kingsgrove to St.Mary's - perhaps they were tougher in those days.
John
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O'Halloran, Bryan (O'Brien) - Limerick.
Dower - Waterford. Ireland
Dodd - Kildare. Ireland
Cotter - Cork. Ireland
French, Clapson - Sussex. U.K.
Southwell - Robertsbridge, Sussex. U.K.
Pinning (Penning) - Lincolnshire. U.K.
Heath - Devon. U.K.
Bennett- Staffordshire. U.K.
Dodge - Kent. U.K
Coffey - Cork, Ireland.
Connolly- Meath
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Just Moi
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1645
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Bit More,
Local family history knowledge .... Cooks River upper reaches just at the back of Petersham !! And land grants in the 1820's 30's mentioning Cooks River, show it was 4 miles walk from Surveyor General's Offices .... (one of my forebears lived at Cooks River, Petersham ......
And horse driven omnibus was just one of the public transport systems available, and there were coaches too, to Cooks River ...
I will not be at all surprised if it turns out that the baby was baptised at Kings Grove, Cooks River, but that the priest recorded it in the parish registry Vol 142A which was kept at "L A " ....
Hmmmmm, lots for you to ponder over  Were any children born after this one? Their births ought to be civil registrations ie post 1856... What about any older siblings .... What Volume were those recorded in...
Also, I don't find it strange that the baptism was on a "week day", in those times... I have NSW certs for marriages on just about any day of the week EXCEPT Saturday and Sunday.... Baptisms .... most popular day in my 1850's certificates is Tuesday.... none on the weekend....
JM
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Just Moi
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1645
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Bit More,
1 January ... New Years Day... I have NSW certs showing marriages on that day... perhaps it was the only day they could get off work? If so, then perhaps same "rule" applied for baptisms, so the baby's father could be present?
Cheers,
JM
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Just Moi
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1645
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Hi there John,
Here's the "news" re Vol 142A and other Volumes too... much of this is already known but just in case...
There are images from each volume of all the Early Church Records .... these were all filmed decades ago... and are available for viewing at the State Library, where they are filed in chronological and volume order... The original volumes are stored within the basement archives of the Mitchell, and are NOT usually made available.
The Volume 142A was originally used to record all the records TRANSMITTED from various denominations clery to St James C of E so that it could be kept by the Established Church....
The NSW BDM registers for the ECR's rely NOT on the original Volumes, but on the filmed images of those volumes... And thus at times the certificates issued by BDM can cause anyone to think that a ceremony was conducted at the historic St James C of E ...
In this particular instance, it is unlikely that a baptism was conducted according to R C rites within that historic C of E building, but "anything was possible" in those times...
So, may I suggest that if you are able to get to the State Library, and look up the film, knowing the names, date, volume number and page etc, the image may provide far more information ... including the occupation of the father, the address and other important genie information. The priest would usually have recorded the information in his own diary, perhaps even had the parents initial the entry, and included the names of the baby's sponsors .. although not all clery were that attentive to record keeping...
Hope that helps, John...
Cheers,
JM
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