*COMPLETED* Help! Drawn a blank - Edmund Brown birth c1862, Caher/Cahir, Co Tipp Family History Local History

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*COMPLETED* Help! Drawn a blank - Edmund Brown birth c1862, Caher/Cahir, Co Tipp

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Topic: *COMPLETED* Help! Drawn a blank - Edmund Brown birth c1862, Caher/Cahir, Co Tipp (Read 246 times)

kob3203
RootsChat Extra

Posts: 90

*COMPLETED* Help! Drawn a blank - Edmund Brown birth c1862, Caher/Cahir, Co Tipp
« on: Thursday 05 November 09 04:59 UTC (UK) »

I have finally uncovered the military service records for my great grandfather, Edmund Brown. They give, ¹apparently, the most precise information about his birth. According to them he signed up on 10 March 1881, giving his age as 18 years 3 months, and his place of birth as the parish of Cahir, in/near the town of Cahir, county Tipperary. It also gives his next of kin as "father - John".

This makes his birth (Nov/Dec 1862) a couple of years too early for civil registration, so I'm left with parish records (we know the family is RC, which helps).

In various other documents his given name is Edmund, Edmond, and even Edward and his surname is Brown or Browne

Given all this information I've drawn a complete blank.

Any suggestions would be much appreciated!

TIA, Pete

¹'Apparently' because lying on your military attestation papers is punishable under military law - a rather good deterrent one would think.
But nevertheless, many people did lie anyway, didn't they?


« Last Edit: Friday 13 November 09 03:06 UTC (UK) by kob3203 »	Logged

Researching Welsh and Irish family history from SE Asia...
Browne: Mallow, Co. Cork (1895-1935) + Cahir, Co. Tipperary (1860-1895) Purtell: Cahir (1860-1895) Fanning: Cashel (to1886)
Corbett: Mitchelstown, Co. Cork (1860-1935)    Sweeney: Mitchelstown (1860-1935)
Griffiths: Llanelly, Carmarthenshire (1837-1934)    Reynolds: Llanelly (1837-1901)
Williams: Llanelly (1837-1934)    Lewis: Ton Pentre, Glamorganshire (1837-1901)

shanew147
RootsChat Aristocrat

Posts: 2576

- - Dublin, Ireland - -

Re: Help! Drawn a blank - Edmund Brown birth c1862, Caher/Cahir, Co Tipperary
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 05 November 09 08:31 UTC (UK) »

The Irish Family History Foundation pay-website holds some Co. Tipperary parish - and they list the RC parish of Cahir in theie sources, but I dont see and Edmund Brown listed in the index around the right time. Their records are listed are started in 1776, but I dont know if they are complete - see : http://www.rootschat.com/links/07f1/

The website is www.irish-roots.ie and the transcripts cost €5 each to view.

If the birth was in the RC Parish of Cahir (rather the area*) then that data would be available in the National Library on microfilms P.2459 and P.2460

(*the Parish of Cahir mentioned on his papers is likely the Civil parish, which may have different boundries)

Shane


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shanew147
RootsChat Aristocrat

Posts: 2576

- - Dublin, Ireland - -

Re: Help! Drawn a blank - Edmund Brown birth c1862, Caher/Cahir, Co Tipperary
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 05 November 09 08:45 UTC (UK) »

update : I found baptism in then index for an Edmund Brown in Cahir RC parish with father's name John - but it's in 1831!!! .. could he be related ?

I dont image Edmund Brown with father John in a single parish was a frequent occurrence... there also seems to be possible siblings for this Edmund - John 1828, Joanne 1833, and Oliver in 1838

the closest Brown baptism to 1862 in the parish, with father John,
is a Marian born 1856.

Shane


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kob3203
RootsChat Extra

Posts: 90

Re: Help! Drawn a blank - Edmund Brown birth c1862, Caher/Cahir, Co Tipperary
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 05 November 09 11:21 UTC (UK) »

Thanks Shane
The 1831 record could well be related, but I don't want to run before I can walk!
The IFHF site you mention is the place I do most of my Irish research - the Tipperary South part of it at http://tipperarysouth.brsgenealogy.com/ is unfortunately one of the places I drew a blank.

There was one other line of enquiry. One of Edmunds sons emigrated to America and stayed with an aunt. A second aunt of mine who's also researching the family tree has fairly conclusively identified the aunt's maiden name as Norah Browne, making her Edmund's sister. She's also uncovered several siblings of Norah (and thus Edmund) who emigrated to Boston Massachsetts soon after 1900. The full list of emigrant Browne siblings is:

Michael Browne, born March 1870 Cahir
Norah Browne, born 17 Mar 1877 Caher
Catherine Browne, born 1881 Cahir
Patrick Browne, born 1884 Cahir
Richard Browne, born 1887 Cahir

However, would you believe it - I can't find any birth record matches for any of these either!
Puzzled,
Pete

Correction! I've just retried all my searches and I've now got two good matches:
- Patrick Browne civil birth in 1883, Co. Tipp
- Richard Browne civil birth in 1883, Co. Tipp
Both are in Cahir(CP), and both show up if I specify "Father Firstname: John". Maybe time to get the chequebook out...

But I'm still puzzled by the lack of anything for the others


« Last Edit: Tuesday 10 November 09 04:35 UTC (UK) by kob3203 »	Logged

shanew147
RootsChat Aristocrat

Posts: 2576

- - Dublin, Ireland - -

Re: Help! Drawn a blank - Edmund Brown birth c1862, Caher/Cahir, Co Tipperary
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 05 November 09 11:25 UTC (UK) »

Quote from: kob3203 on Thursday 05 November 09 11:21 UTC (UK)

Michael Bowne, born March 1870 Cahir
Norah Browne, born 17 Mar 1877 Caher
Catherine Browne, born 1881 Cahir
Patrick Browne, born 1884 Cahir
Richard Browne, born 1887 Cahir

However, would you believe it - I can't find any birth record matches for any of these either!
Puzzled,
Pete

have you tried the civil index for these or the IFHF website ?

Shane


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kob3203
RootsChat Extra

Posts: 90

Re: Help! Drawn a blank - Edmund Brown birth c1862, Caher/Cahir, Co Tipperary
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 05 November 09 12:17 UTC (UK) »

Yes, it would be the civil index on the IFHF site that I checked - the http://www.irish-roots.ie/ site takes you to http://tipperarysouth.brsgenealogy.com/ once you click through to Tipperary (South) via the map links.

I've now found matches there for Richard and Patrick (see my correction to the end of my last post).
I've paid to view Richard's record - it gives John Browne's occupation as labourer (same as on Edmunds marriage certificate). Plus we now have a brand new name - John's wife, Ellen Fanning.

Thanks again Shane. As often seems to happen I missed something the first time I went though all this, and going through it again like this helps me to double check, and it seems like
Pete

P.S. I'm still puzzled by the lack of birth records for Edmund, Michael, Norah and Catherine.


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shanew147
RootsChat Aristocrat

Posts: 2576

- - Dublin, Ireland - -

Re: Help! Drawn a blank - Edmund Brown birth c1862, Caher/Cahir, Co Tipperary
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 05 November 09 12:49 UTC (UK) »

for those missing civil registrations it might be worth widening the search for the others outside the registration district of Cahir in case the family moved ...

Shane


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kob3203
RootsChat Extra

Posts: 90

Re: Help! Drawn a blank - Edmund Brown birth c1862, Caher/Cahir, Co Tipperary
« Reply #7 on: Friday 06 November 09 02:08 UTC (UK) »

Thanks Shane, good call.
I've now tried searching for possible matches anywhere in Co Tipperary, both at the IFHF site and the LDS pilot (FamilySearch) at http://pilot.familysearch.org/. As they appear to be independent transcriptions of the Irish civil birth registers it seems a good cross-check. I can now add a possible match for Catherine, making my full list of possible matches:

Richard Browne, born Q4 1886 Caher CP, father John
Patrick Browne born Q2 1883 Caher CP, father John
Kate Brown born Q4 1882 father John, but NOT Caher CP (although still in Clogheen reg. dist.)

However, still nothing for Edmund, Michael or Norah.
Pete

P.S. Edmund was born c1862 and Richard's civil birth record was dated 1886, 24 years later.
I suppose there's a possibility that Edmund's mother died and John remarried?
I've tried to find an Ellen Fanning/John Browne marriage anywhere in Co Tipperary in 1886 or earlier and, once again, I'm drawing blanks.


« Last Edit: Tuesday 10 November 09 04:40 UTC (UK) by kob3203 »	Logged

kob3203
RootsChat Extra

Posts: 90

Re: Help! Drawn a blank - Edmund Brown birth c1862, Caher/Cahir, Co Tipperary
« Reply #8 on: Monday 09 November 09 06:14 UTC (UK) »

Shane,
We've now found birth/baptism records for Edmund's siblings Michael, Bridget, William, Honora, Thomas, Catherine, Patrick and Richard, either in Ballynatten (Tullamaine civil parish), or Powerstown RC parish. This puts the family firmly in the Cashel/Clonmel/Caher area between 1867 and 1886 - right on the edge of the Archdiocese of Cashel & Emly.

It now seems almost certain that Edmund was born in 1862 and Ellen and John were married before that (no Tipperary civil records before 1864) in one of the parishes of the Cashel and Emly Archdiocese parishes (so no on-line records available).

Thanks to your reply at http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,418002 I now have a chance of finding those elusive Cashel + Emly records!

Thanks again!
Pete


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corisande
RootsChat Senior

Posts: 337

Re: Help! Drawn a blank - Edmund Brown birth c1862, Caher/Cahir, Co Tipperary
« Reply #9 on: Monday 09 November 09 08:41 UTC (UK) »

Pete

As your personal page says you live in SE Asia, I doubt you will get into the NLI to look up the fiches of the parishes you want.

I think you can get them by ordering them from a LDS Centre if you have one near you. They do charge for ordering, and you have to look at them in their centre, but the costs are not too steep. Otherwise you will have to wait for a visit to Dublin.

The IFHF are, in my opinion, a bit hit and miss in their transcriptions. So the only way to be sure is to do it yourself


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Grant in Tipperary
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kob3203
RootsChat Extra

Posts: 90

*COMPLETED* Help! Drawn a blank - Edmund Brown birth c1862, Caher/Cahir, Co Tipp
« Reply #10 on: Monday 09 November 09 09:29 UTC (UK) »

Thanks for the suggestion corisande.
The LDS were also told to withdraw the Cashel + Emly microfilms in 1991, according to the AGPI blog (http://www.apgi.ie/News2008.html, 27th May 2008).
No idea whether they did. And if they withdrew them, I've no idea whether they've reopened them.
Does anybody know if the LDS centres have these Cashel + Emly RC records available for viewing?
If they do, then maybe I'll pay a visit to an LDS centre in the UK when I'm in the UK again next year
Pete

{Amended: annclare posted here http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,418002 that LDS never got the Cashel + Emly RC records. Looks like it's a visit to NLI for me next year, or just maybe... http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=418419}

{Research now continued at this thread - http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=418419}


« Last Edit: Friday 13 November 09 03:08 UTC (UK) by kob3203 »	Logged

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