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Author Topic: Anne Salesbury Powell  (Read 10051 times)

Offline Rol

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Re: Anne Salesbury Powell
« Reply #45 on: Thursday 17 December 09 22:06 GMT (UK) »


Hi Heather,


I think that the Thomas Vychan Salisbury whose 1578/9 will you mention was the first man in the junior line that led from the main Bachymbyd/Rūg stem down to the "Wynnes" (properly Salesburys) of Meyarth at the northern end of Gwyddelwern parish.  I have long wanted a chance to read it -- most wills of that date (including this one) did not survive the rigours of time in the Bangor diocesan archives,  so the existence of an original grant with the text of the will in that little group of deeds in the Birch Cullimore collection (Howarden RO part) is very fortunate.  I have yet to find an opportunity to look at it.  (Any volunteers?!)

As to your legal query,  an exemplification in this sort of context was a formal and certified extract from a court record,  acceptable as evidence in litigation,  etc.  A final concord was a court-enrolled agreement to settle a legal dispute.  In the context of land law,  feigned actions* were often brought to create a binding settlement between parties conveying land,  and had the effect of cutting off or barring entailed interests and other unprotected incumbrances on the title -- so making possible a subsequent clean sale (or re-settlement or mortgage) of the property concerned.  A "deed to lead the uses of a fine" [often "and recovery"] was the pre-arranged new settlement that would spring to life once a planned fine was safely passed and inrolled.

In the case of the Bachymbyd transactions you mention,  I think the Sir Robert Salesbury there was the spendthrift owner of the estate before the William who held Denbigh Castle for the king in the Civil War.  The two documents may be two certificates issued about the same underlying fine,  but obtained from the court thirty years apart -- not sure without checking the text.  (Pretty sure Sir RS was dead long before 1650.)


Rol



* (or,  more accurately,  collusive actions)

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Offline hiraeth

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Re: Anne Salesbury Powell
« Reply #46 on: Thursday 17 December 09 22:58 GMT (UK) »
Hi Rol

Thank you for the explanation.  I think I understand :-\   It seems odd that they would be dated thirty years apart and particularly since I've also found a probate of yet another Hugh Salesburie of Bodyngharad Nov 11, 1623 (which does not show up with the NLW documents listed on their website anyway).  If the 1630 Hugh S and Robert S were both deceased by 1650, and the latter one does mention 6400 acres and 20 pounds rent, do you think this means the dispute was settled by their respective estates?

Thomas Vychan S caught my eye because I found these:
179.
1616, May 4.
GRANT from Hugh ap Thomas Vaughan Salusbury of Bodengharad, co. Denbigh, gent., to Robert Salusbury, his son, of a parcel of land called y kay melyn (8a.) in Bodengharad

201.
1614,Nov.22.
BARGAIN AND SALE from William Salesburie of Rvg. co. Merioneth, esq., to Hugh Salesburie of Bodengharad, co. Denbigh, gent., of a burgage or messuage in which Peter Salesburie**  now dwells and all barns, etc., belonging, in the parish of Llanvorovke, commote of Collion, in the liberties and franchises of the town of Ruthin, co. Denbigh

819.
1573, May 7.
1.   Thomas ap John Salesburye of bodeeharad, co. Denbighe, gent.;
2.   Griffith ap Symonde of the same place, yeoman.
GRANT in fee farm of a parcel in the township of bodeeharad and hengoid, co. Denbighe, bounded by land called Caye Eva, by the land of John Mydelton formerly belonging to the church of llanvorocke, by the road leading from Ruthin towards pont vchell and by the water called cloyedocke.
Latin.
826.
1593, April 19.
1.   Thomas ap Ieuan ap Madock of Bodyngharad, co. Denbigh, yeoman;
2.   Hugh ap Thomas ap John salesbury.
BOND concerning possession of a parcel called kae yr deyntyr in the township of Bodyngharad, co. Denbigh, bounded by land called kae Eva, by the land of William middelton, by the highway leading from Ruthin towards pont vchel and by the brook called Clowedock.

652.
1598, Nov. 25.
1.   Thomas ap Ieuan ap madok of Bodynghard, co. denbighe, yeoman;
2.   Hugh ap Thomas ap John Salesbury of Bodyngharad, gent.
GRANT of a parcel called kay yr deintyr in the township of Bodyngharad within the commote of Collion and lordship of Dyffrincloyde, co. Denbighe, bounded by land called kay Eva, by the highway leading from Ruthin towards y bont vchel and by the river klywedog.
Latin.

Baptism at RUTHIN Nov 5, 1595 Peter SALISBURY s/o Hughe
Baptism at RUTHIN May 19, 1598 John SALESBURY s/o Hugh
Baptism at RUTHN Jul 28, 1601 Margaret SALESBURY d/o Hugh

I'm getting more and more confused.  I don't see how the Hugh above can be my Hugh who died in 1661 because he mentions a brother William ap John and unless he was about 90 when he died the timing is not right.  Neither does the scenario of my Hugh being the son of the John S baptized in 1598 because in that case he would died at about 40 with 13 grandchildren who were each left five pounds - a fair sum of money in 1661.  He did have a daughter Margaret though :-\  If only there were more baptism and marriage records.   It seems to be a case of so near and yet so far.  :'(

Heather
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Offline Rol

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Re: Anne Salesbury Powell
« Reply #47 on: Friday 18 December 09 05:20 GMT (UK) »


... I'm getting more and more confused. ... It seems to be a case of so near and yet so far.  :'(
It's a jungle out there . . . ;)  They were all far too keen on the name Hugh.  But we must at least be thankful for that nice distinctive surname.

The NLW Bachymbyd Deeds are a great source,  aren't they?  Well worth ploughing through.

I think the exemplifications relate to the transaction of 41 Q. Eliz. specified here:
Quote
562.  1607/8, March 1.
WRIT under the Great Seal pardoning Humfrey Middleton and Hugh Salisburie, gentlemen, for alienation by acquiring by fine, 9 June 41 Elizabeth, of Robert Salisburie, kt., and Eleanor, his wife, of the park, messuage, lands and tenements called parke Clockaynock otherwise Clockaynock Parke in Clockaynock, Llanvorrock, Giffiliog, and Llanynys, and the messuage, lands, etc., called ffrieth Bedcrosse and Ynetig in Giffiliog and Llanynys, co. Denbigh.
Latin.

The differences between the 1620 and the 1650 documents are probably just copyists' or scheduling variations.  Whoever wrote the 1650 one may have been late for his bus on a Friday evening -- note the "etc, etc"!  So the omission of the acreage and one annual rent probably does not tell us much.  (BTW,  the artificial court action ending with a "fine"/ "final concord" or "fine and recovery" was just a conveyancing stratagem -- no underlying dispute,  at least not at that level.)

Sir Robert S (husband of Eleanor) is said to have died in 1603 (see e.g. Griffith's PACF p.59),  and the Bachymbyd deeds of the first decade of the 17th c. do seem consistent with that sort of dating.  (Although the description of his only son John's IPM dated 7 Oct. 1609 does seem a bit confused.)  Not sure when the other parties to the fine died,  but if they were active towards the end of Eliz. I's reign,  I suppose that by 1650 they were more likely to be dead than alive.

As to those Salesburys in Bodyngharad,  it is frustrating not to be able to anchor them down -- especially with a good long string like Robert ap Hugh ap Thomas Fychan Salesbury.  The risk is that there may have been more than one Thomas Fychan Salesbury on the loose.  The one about whom I am reasonably confident (whose 1578/9 will you mentioned in Reply 44) is generally said to have had sons called Thomas Wynn S,  Robert S,  Piers S and Ffoulke S.  Not seen a Hugh mentioned -- but perhaps that Birch Cullimore will might add one to the list:  a tempting thought.


Rol

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Offline Jo Harding

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Re: Anne Salesbury Powell
« Reply #48 on: Friday 18 December 09 10:06 GMT (UK) »
Hello Heather,

I did think that the Birch Cullimore Collection was held in Chester RO. I believe that I have seen something from this there in the past. I have an idea that all, or part, of this is held in the salt mines at Winsford. The RO keep an overflow of their archives there. Reason why I say this is that I remember having to wait a couple of weeks for them to fetch it. Might be worth checking with them again. Let me know if you are stuck as I have a friend who visits Chester RO every week.

Since Birch Cullimore had (and have) an office in Whitefriars, Chester, any deposits should be held in Cheshire RO.

A search of the Cheshire archive online gives a number of hits for Salesbury/Salusbury/Salisbury. The Chester spelling seems more anglicised than the Welsh.

Jo


Offline hiraeth

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Re: Anne Salesbury Powell
« Reply #49 on: Friday 18 December 09 19:26 GMT (UK) »
Thank you for the kind offer of help Jo.  Living a continent away has it's drawbacks at times :(   I've emailed the Chester archives for more information re obtaining a copy of the document.  Will await their response.   

And thank you very much for sharing your knowledge & research experience Rol.  It's been very helpful and encouraging.   
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Offline hiraeth

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Re: Anne Salesbury Powell
« Reply #50 on: Friday 18 December 09 19:27 GMT (UK) »
Like Paul I think someone would write a book about this family.   The tale related in this document is worthy of a book by itself  :)

720.
1613, May 22.
INSPEXIMUS of a decree in Chancery between William Salisbury, esq., complainant, and Pierce Griffith, esq., Elen Owen, widow, and others, defendants. Complaint by William Salisburye of Ruge, co. Merioneth, esq., against defendants that John Salisburye the younger, son of John Salisbury of Rug, esq., deceased, and brother to Sir Robert Salisbury, kt., deceased, and to complainant, was siesed in fee tail, with remainder to complainant, of the chief manor house and demesne lands called Bachymbyd, co. Denbigh, and of a park called Poole Parke and various other messuages, etc., in cos. Denbigh and Merioneth, of the yearly value of £1200, and so seised by some wasteful courses grown in debt to the sum of £1500, about 4 years ago entreated complainant to join with him in the mortgage of some of the lands to furnish money to pay the debts, who did so and mortgaged the capital messuage called Bachymbyd with all demesne thereto used with divers other messuages, etc., in co. Denbigh, in all amounting to the yearly value of £500; which were assured to John Williams of Chepeside, Goldsmith for £3000, with condition of redemption on payment of £3,900, with which John Salisbury paid his debts of £1500 and received to himself the £1500 residue. The said money being known to be in John Salisburie’s hands, and he himself growing weak and sickly, Elen Owen, wife of John Owen, gent., deceased, having insinuated herself into familiarity with him by offer to be a nurse to him in his weakness and to employ her best cares for the recovery of his health, sought to make a prey to herself and her accomplices of the whole estate of money, land and goods of the said John Salisburye and to divide the same with her adherents, i.e. John Owen, her husband, Piers Griffith, esq., Thomas Vaughan, John Wyn Salisbury, and Piers Lloyd, and finding that John Salisbury had retired to a little farmhouse called Poole Parke, co. Denbigh, of his own inheritance on purpose there to remain private with little expenses and to attend to the directions given him for the recovery of his health and strength, Elen persuaded him to remove to her husband’s house at Fernyll, co. Salop, to live with them, which he did about 2 years before he died. He and her confederated persuaded him to sell other lands of his ancient inheritance to the value of £2000, which sum was delivered to the hands of defendants. Before going to Owen’s house John Salisburye had asked plaintiff to seek out some convenient marriage for himself and promised to assure all his lands upon him so that he should enjoy the same immediately after John’s deceased, John having fully resolved never to marry. Complainant thereupon agreed to marry a gentlewoman of good descent with whom he was to have £ 2000 and more, which was to be used towards redemption of the mortgage. Before his removal to Owen’s house John Salisburye had made his will and published the same to many of his friends and kinsmen, whereby he disposed of all or most of his personal estate to complainant, who was also to be executor. Defendant solicited him not to consent to the marriage, to make conveyance to complainant, nor dispose by will or otherwise of his estate to complainant; all which slanders against complainant they procured him to do. Defendants, in the extremity of his sickness, drew him to make a leade of the most part of his lands not previously mortgaged to Piers Griffith and John Owen, for 30 years without any valuable consideration. Complainants’ confirmation to this lease was obtained by fraud and deceit. Later defendants persuaded John Salisbury to release to John Williams the condition of redemption, for £3300, thereby utterly disinheriting complainant thereof, and also barring him of the monies received for the mortgage and release, amounting to £7000, which sum was divided among defendants, except £740 yet unpaid of the last £3300, for which John Salisbury caused John Williams to enter into a bond to Piers Griffith. Last Michaelmas John Salisbury, being again in alter his will, naming Piers Griffith sole executor.
It is decreed, 15 May, 1613, that complainant, his heirs and assigns shall have, hold, and enjoy the lands leased to Piers Griffith and John Owen, notwithstanding the said lease, which lease is to be delivered by defendants to complainant, the Lord Chancellor to have a note of the charitable legacies demised by the will and consider what is fit to be performed thereof; also ordered that Piers Griffith shall not discharge any of the bonds taken in his name for debt due to John Salisbury nor receive any of the sum, nor as executor receive any money or debt due by any person to John Salisbury nor otherwise as executor take any benefit of any of the personal estate, nor discharge any person of any debt, the bonds to be brought by him to this Court, by 20 June next, as well those as all such as now remain in court to be delivered to complainant. Great Seal attached.


I'm not entirely sure I want to be related to this family :D ;D :D

Merry Christmas everyone :)
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Offline Rol

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Re: Anne Salesbury Powell
« Reply #51 on: Saturday 19 December 09 04:51 GMT (UK) »


On the location of the Welsh part of Birch Cullimore's archive,  and thus of Thomas Vychan Salisbury's will (apparently dated 9 Oct. 1576 and proved at Bangor 16 Jan. 1578/9),  here is some confirmatory detail for the sake of clarity.

I have an idea that originally the full archive went to Chester RO for assessment and sorting and they produced an overall schedule.  Given how much of the collection concerned estates in North East Wales,  the decision was subsequently taken to transfer all that material onwards to Howarden RO.   The  Birch Cullimore schedule as digitised for the National Register of Archives (and so A2A) must have been based on the overall,  pre-transfer schedule made by Chester RO.  Very few of Howarden's own schedules have been made available in full online,  so the visibility of this material via the web is fortunate.

That archival history still generates the following misleading entry in A2A:

Quote
DBC 1/16/4  9 Oct. 1576

These documents are held at Cheshire and Chester Archives and Local Studies Service

Contents:
WILL AND PROBATE (16 Jan. 1578/9) of Thomas Vychan Salisbury of Llan Elidan, co.Denb.

But if one collapses the detail buttons to show an overview of the Foulkes of Eriviatt segment of the collection,  a little amendment phrase does disclose the truth (I have highlighted this and also the Nantclwyd sub-section where the will is located):

Quote
FOULKES FAMILY OF ERIVIATT AND CHESTER  DBC 1  [n.d.]

These documents are held at Cheshire and Chester Archives and Local Studies Service

Conditions of access: DBC 1/6-16 and DBC 1/18-19: Transferred to Clwyd Record Office.

Archival history:
Acc.123(pt.)

Contents:
SUMMARY
DBC 1/1 Rectory of St. John Baptist, Chester, and related premises. 58 docs. 1509-1718.
DBC 1/2 Personal papers of Adams family of Chester and elsewhere. 42 docs. 1655-1791.
DBC 1/3 Premises in Bridge Street, Chester. 15 docs. 1527-1748.
DBC 1/4 Probate documents of Jane Hughes of Chester. 7 docs. 1736-1752.
DBC 1/5 Chester miscellaneous. 1 file. 1757.
DBC 1/6 Salusbury of Bryn-y-Barcut, co.Denb. 39 docs. 1700-1732.
DBC 1/7 Probate of William Williams of Glen-y-Werne, co.Denb. 1 doc. 1682.
DBC 1/8 Foulkes of Eriviatt, co.Denb. 23 docs. 1648-1856.
DBC 1/9 Rev. Henry Foulkes of Oxford. 6 docs. 1820-1833.
DBC 1/10 Rev. P.J.B. Foulkes of Rode Rectory. 1 bdl. 1887-1898.
DBC 1/11 Sir William Wynne Foulkes. 1 vol., 4 gatherings, 1 file, 3 bdls. 1863-1913.
DBC 1/12 Havod yr Abbat in Lordship of Yale. 7 docs. 1607-1618.
DBC 1/13 Havodynnos. 1 doc. 1615.
DBC 1/14 Henllan. 1 doc. 1785.
DBC 1/15 Thelwall of Llanbedr, co.Denb. 33 docs. 1547-1772.
DBC 1/16 Nancloyd. 12 docs. 1574-1609.
DBC 1/17 Rectory of Ideford, co.Devon. 4 docs. 1713-1765.
DBC 1/18 Premises in Argoed in Mold, co.Flint. 1 doc. 1604.
DBC 1/19 Premises in Vaynol, co.Flint. 11 docs. 1624-1705.

This is the summary info that appears on ANW -- now re-named "Archives Wales" -- about the papers at Howarden (for the full entry click on the link):

Quote
Flintshire Record Office

Birch Cullimore MSS

Reference code(s): GB 0208 D/B
Title: Birch Cullimore MSS
Short title: Birch Cullimore & Co. collection of manuscripts
Dates of creation: 1311-1956 ...
Extent and medium: 3456 items
Name of creator(s): Birch, Cullimore & Co., Solicitors, Chester.


Rol


ADDED:  That case,  Heather,  was certainly an 'A' grade chancery row. :)  It used to strike me that poor old WS of Rūg almost had more stress from the foolishness of his own brothers and nephew (plus the malevolence of the bloodsuckers who latched onto them) than ever he did from General Mytton and all Cromwell's men!





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Offline hiraeth

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Re: Anne Salesbury Powell
« Reply #52 on: Saturday 19 December 09 06:08 GMT (UK) »

It used to strike me that poor old WS of Rūg almost had more stress from the foolishness of his own brothers and nephew (plus the malevolence of the bloodsuckers who latched onto them) than ever he did from General Mytton and all Cromwell's men!


 ;D ;D  Defending the castle was probably a d**n sight easier than dealing with "family"  ::) ::)
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Offline kevlobb

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Re: Anne Salesbury Powell
« Reply #53 on: Friday 08 July 11 15:31 BST (UK) »
Hi Rol,

On a slight different topic, please could you help on how I could get hold of the book "The Salisburies of Lleweni". The reason I ask is  your comment about chapter 8 where he traces his own descent.

Kevin

I think that I can fill in a bit more background about Heather's
Quote
... file off the internet re the Salisburies of Lleweni [which] used to be on aol homepage for “dalesman” but the site has since shut down [and which] appears to be a copy of a pedigree type document written in the 19th century
(Reply 3).
I too have the files from that site,  and I think that the Grant Salisbury whom Heather mentions as the source of some other info (Reply 10) was the AOL site owner and the person who made and uploaded the OCR-files from a copy of the book.  I have never been in contact with him,  but I would imagine that it would worth checking out his current knowledge via that e-mail address.

Postcsript:  I ought probably to add for the record that in Chapter Eight ERGS traces his own descent from John,  younger brother of the Joshua Salusbury of Denbigh (d.1719) who is a main focus in this thread.  One of John's sons,  Henry,  is said to have gone to London and then to America (and so could perhaps have been the ancestor of the Henry of the USA credited on the title page of the book),  while another,  David,  is stated to have been father to Joseph who in turn was father to ERGS himself.