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Topic: GERMANY: Horrendous Handwriting Help!! (Read 975 times)
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JLo
RootsChat Senior
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Posts: 484
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Can anyone help decipher this place of birth from the 1961 Census  (the middle one )
In the 1871 Census this person's place of birth was listed as 'Prussia Berlin', but there is no way that this says Berlin
To give you a clue - the one above says Islington and the one below says Manchester!!
I'm not sure whether its Russia or Prussia and have no idea what the second word says.
The person it refers to is my husband's gg grandfather. He was the Lowenthal who came to England, so finding his birth place pretty crucial. Have already tried naturalisation records - no luck 
Any ideas anyone?
Julie
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 Census1861Lowenthal_2.JPG (101.03 KB, 800x184 - viewed 219 times.)
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« Last Edit: Thursday 19 May 05 15:40 BST (UK) by Berlin-Bob »
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Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukMarshall, Beeson (Herts) Lo(e)wenthal,Kavanagh, Maxam (London, Birmingham) Harrisson, Matthews (London, Essex) Poulton, Philbrick (Essex) Guest, Timmins (Staffs) Raynes/Ryall (Ireland, Birmingham) White (Bucks) Gunn (Scotland, Lancs, Essex) Ison (Tamworth, Birmingham, USA, Canada) |
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Little Nell
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Hi Julie,
I'm tempted to go with Russia for the first word. My initial 'gut' reaction to the next word was Helsinki! Now I know it's in Finland now, - but it was in Russia and before that was in Sweden. All to do with the complicated politics of the 19th century.
Nell
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Berlin-Bob
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by My Daughter. Chatting to find her Roots !
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Hi Julie,
I agree with Nell, it looks more like Russia than Prussia
And I agrre with you, it does not look like Berlin, but I don't see a 'Helsinki' there either.
Can you post a bit more writing, please, is there a bit with a capital B and capitel R that we could compare ?
Bob
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Searching for Coleman, Moore, Kallnung in London; Margulies, Remenyi in E. Europe; Ancestors of Hessie Stevenson-Coleman-Baxter (Ireland, 1861) and, of course, any other ancestors for my web-site. All Census Data included in this post is Crown Copyright (see: www.nationalarchives.gov.uk) |
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KathyM
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I think it is Prussia.....the capital P running ino the small r .....
the second word is probably a small village on the outskirts of Berlin...which, if discovered...could really help your search...
Berlin was capital of Prussia until 1871....then capital of Germany until 1945.... I think.
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~~~~~~~~ Census transcriptions Crown Copyright, www.NationalArchives.gov.ukArdill, Bourke/Burke, Bellwood, Bridge, Cain, Church, Cragg, Dennell, Dunning, Gough, Haslam, Holmes, Jessop, Kidson/Kitson, Knowles, Markwick, Martin, Munden, Nickerson, Robinson, Seddon, Whittle, Varley & Walpole. Areas: Yorkshire, Lancashire, Norfolk, Marylebone & Tipperary |
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NigelG
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Have you found him on subsequent census? What his full name and birth date?
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Davies, Edwards, Evans, Griffiths, Hughes, James, Jones, Morgan, Nicholas, Powell, Prytherch, Rees, Williams in Glamorgan, Brecon, PEM, CMN & MGY Biddle, Budd, Clark/e, Davis/Davies, Elliott, Emery, Harper, Harris, Lloyd, Parsons, Phillips, Pitt, Reed/Reid/Read/Rhead, Rogers, Scandrett, Smith, Tylor & Waldron in Staffs, Worcs, Hef, Cheshire, Shrops., Middlesex & Surrey. Biddle & McDermott - Dublin Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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JLo
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Thanks for your suggestions so far. I've attached (I hope) a bit more to see if it helps and some background info on the man in question.
The address is Rydon Street. One of the R's looks very similar, but I can't find a 'Pr' to compare.
The person in question is Morris Lowenthal. He is also known as Moses and Marcus although his full name was actually Maurice Samuel and his surname can be spelt Löwenthal & Loewenthal.
His occupation is a Pocket Book Maker in this and the next census and Manufacturer of Fancy Leather Goods on other certificates.
He died in 1880, so is obviously not on the 1881 census! I don't have his birth date although his death certificate records him as 49 yrs in Nov 1880, so my best guess is 1831. His father is named as Lipman/Lifman Loewenthal (deceased) on his marriage certificate.
The birth place on the 1871 census is very clearly 'Prussia Berlin' although I realise people didn't always tell the truth 
Any more ideas???
Julie
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Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukMarshall, Beeson (Herts) Lo(e)wenthal,Kavanagh, Maxam (London, Birmingham) Harrisson, Matthews (London, Essex) Poulton, Philbrick (Essex) Guest, Timmins (Staffs) Raynes/Ryall (Ireland, Birmingham) White (Bucks) Gunn (Scotland, Lancs, Essex) Ison (Tamworth, Birmingham, USA, Canada) |
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KathyM
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Ok - so we're looking fopr a place (possibly near Berlin - something like Frinch or Finach ??
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~~~~~~~~ Census transcriptions Crown Copyright, www.NationalArchives.gov.ukArdill, Bourke/Burke, Bellwood, Bridge, Cain, Church, Cragg, Dennell, Dunning, Gough, Haslam, Holmes, Jessop, Kidson/Kitson, Knowles, Markwick, Martin, Munden, Nickerson, Robinson, Seddon, Whittle, Varley & Walpole. Areas: Yorkshire, Lancashire, Norfolk, Marylebone & Tipperary |
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Berlin-Bob
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by My Daughter. Chatting to find her Roots !
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So we don't start limiting ourselves here,
As I understand it, the reference to Berlin is only because the transcriber wrote "Prussia, Berlin"
(and for all we know, that may be because it was the only place in Germany that he knew !)
So we are looking for anywhere in Prussia, starting with F !
If anybody has any ideas, then try them out here: http://gov.genealogy.net/index.jsp
Enter your guess in Ortsname (Place) and click either on "Beginn ... " or "phonetisch"
and then on "Suchen" (search)
Hope this helps.
Kathy, I tried Frinch and Finach, but no joy !
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Searching for Coleman, Moore, Kallnung in London; Margulies, Remenyi in E. Europe; Ancestors of Hessie Stevenson-Coleman-Baxter (Ireland, 1861) and, of course, any other ancestors for my web-site. All Census Data included in this post is Crown Copyright (see: www.nationalarchives.gov.uk) |
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KathyM
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Sorry - I don't think I am helping much ! the more I look at it - the more it looks like 'spinach'..... must be lunchtime.
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~~~~~~~~ Census transcriptions Crown Copyright, www.NationalArchives.gov.ukArdill, Bourke/Burke, Bellwood, Bridge, Cain, Church, Cragg, Dennell, Dunning, Gough, Haslam, Holmes, Jessop, Kidson/Kitson, Knowles, Markwick, Martin, Munden, Nickerson, Robinson, Seddon, Whittle, Varley & Walpole. Areas: Yorkshire, Lancashire, Norfolk, Marylebone & Tipperary |
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JLo
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 Now you come to mention it, it does look like spinach
All I can tell you on the emmigration, is that he married here in 1860. I've tried Hamburg passenger lists - no joy. No joy at the Home Office either. He married an English woman, not sure whether he ever bothered applying for citizenship. Both he and his wife were Jewish - have tried that angle too!
The transcription of the 1861 census (the one above) had put 'Russia Thiaon', but as they had also put Linford for Liverpool I wasn't relying on that too much. It is the 1871 Census that says Berlin and the writing is beautifully clear.
I think I shall be trying out that link tonight with every possibility I can think of beginning with F! (Could be a long night!!)
Thanks,
Julie x
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Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukMarshall, Beeson (Herts) Lo(e)wenthal,Kavanagh, Maxam (London, Birmingham) Harrisson, Matthews (London, Essex) Poulton, Philbrick (Essex) Guest, Timmins (Staffs) Raynes/Ryall (Ireland, Birmingham) White (Bucks) Gunn (Scotland, Lancs, Essex) Ison (Tamworth, Birmingham, USA, Canada) |
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