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Author
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Topic: ERNEST THOMA BROWN (Read 878 times)
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aakarlhamo
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 53
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi
Can anyone help he with my elusive Brown family?
I have a marriage cert for my grandfather, Ernest Thomas Brown born 1910/11, not sure where he was born. He married Ellen Doris Serjeant, Edmonton Registry Office August 1932 when he was 21.
He was listed as living at 154 Winchester Road Edmonton but I have checked the electoral roll to see if a Brown family lived there in 1932 and they didn't so he was maybe lodging and originally not from the area.
Ernest and Ellen were at 51 Harrow Drive in 1935.
Ernest Thomas was a sand blaster, gas stoves. I think that it was R&A Mane where he worked.
His father is also Ernest Brown and he was builder's labourer. There is also a witness signature for an E C Brown, maybe a mother or sibling 
At some point Ernest went to live in Rugby.
That is all I know about the Browns. I have a suspicion that he wasn't from Edmonton because I got the death cert for an Ernest Thomas who died in Warwickshire 1977 and born Mar 1911 Edmonton but his father was Arthur.
I can't find him on the 1911 census on ancestry either and I would like to identify his father and birth place so I can start to trace the Brown family history.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks, Carole 
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HARMES - SUSSEX/HAMMERSMITH, SERJEANT - CAMBS/ LONON, ASSELL - KINGS LYNN/ LONDON, HENLEY - LONDON, SMART - CAMBS /LONDON,
COWLAND - ESSEX, PIERPOINT - LONDON, BROWN - EDMONTON, DARE - SUFFOLK, BRAY - LIVERPOOL/CUMBRIA. MCMULLEN/KELLY/MILBURN/COLLINS/SUMPTON CUMBRIA
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Freckneale
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1755
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Have you looked at this birth:
Births Mar qtr. 1911
Brown, Ernest T., Edmonton, vol. 3a: 598
The death cert for the Ernest Thomas Brown who died in Warwick was probably the Ernest T. born in the same quarter in Leicester.
He should appear on the 1911 census somewhere though if that is the correct one.
Alexander
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aakarlhamo
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 53
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Alexander,
I made the mistake of assuming that Ernest T was from Edmonton so the death record for Warwickshire which had the right birth date made it look like a winner. I sent away for the birth certificate and the father was Arthur Brown. 
There is a birth for Ernest Thomas in Leicester and one in Great Yarmouth.
Unfortunately, I have not been able to bring up the 1911 census for them on Ancestry.
However, someone has kindly given me 1911 details of an Ernest Brown 1883 Gt Yarmouth who married a Druscilla Mott, they had a child called Ernest born Sept 1910. The father's profession is a carpenter. It looks promising and I have put it on Ancestry in the hope that some trees would pop up but as yet not not
Really, I need to try and get the 1911 census for the Leicester birth to see what the father's profession was.
Thanks for the birth details though.
Carole
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HARMES - SUSSEX/HAMMERSMITH, SERJEANT - CAMBS/ LONON, ASSELL - KINGS LYNN/ LONDON, HENLEY - LONDON, SMART - CAMBS /LONDON,
COWLAND - ESSEX, PIERPOINT - LONDON, BROWN - EDMONTON, DARE - SUFFOLK, BRAY - LIVERPOOL/CUMBRIA. MCMULLEN/KELLY/MILBURN/COLLINS/SUMPTON CUMBRIA
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aakarlhamo
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 53
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Just to let you know that I have found a census for Ernest Tebbit Brown 1911, Leicester. So it looks like Great Yarmouth is the one. YEAY
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HARMES - SUSSEX/HAMMERSMITH, SERJEANT - CAMBS/ LONON, ASSELL - KINGS LYNN/ LONDON, HENLEY - LONDON, SMART - CAMBS /LONDON,
COWLAND - ESSEX, PIERPOINT - LONDON, BROWN - EDMONTON, DARE - SUFFOLK, BRAY - LIVERPOOL/CUMBRIA. MCMULLEN/KELLY/MILBURN/COLLINS/SUMPTON CUMBRIA
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Freckneale
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1755
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Excellent, let us know if you get that birth cert and find if it's the right one.
Right after I posted, I did have doubts about the Edmonton one as he appeared to have father of Arthur on the census, as you'd already mentioned - sorry about that.
Alexander
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aakarlhamo
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 53
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I will let you know as soon as I have the certificate.
Fingers crossed it is the right one
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HARMES - SUSSEX/HAMMERSMITH, SERJEANT - CAMBS/ LONON, ASSELL - KINGS LYNN/ LONDON, HENLEY - LONDON, SMART - CAMBS /LONDON,
COWLAND - ESSEX, PIERPOINT - LONDON, BROWN - EDMONTON, DARE - SUFFOLK, BRAY - LIVERPOOL/CUMBRIA. MCMULLEN/KELLY/MILBURN/COLLINS/SUMPTON CUMBRIA
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aakarlhamo
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 53
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Alexander
The birth certificate has landed and it is for an Ernest Thomas Brown, so the middle name is right.
Father, Ernest James, is listed as a carpenter journeyman. This worries me as on son Ernest's marriage certificate the father was listed as a builder's labourer, which is unskilled and a carpenter is skilled
Armed with the birth info, I looked for a death. I must admit that I expected to find one in the Rugby area because that is where he lived with his second family but not so as he died in Gt Yarmouth in 2002 at 91 yrs. I hope he has passed those genes to me ha ha!!
So now I have sent for the death certificate in the hope that there will be a relative's name and address but knowing my luck it will probably be a nursing home or hospital where he died.
Carole
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HARMES - SUSSEX/HAMMERSMITH, SERJEANT - CAMBS/ LONON, ASSELL - KINGS LYNN/ LONDON, HENLEY - LONDON, SMART - CAMBS /LONDON,
COWLAND - ESSEX, PIERPOINT - LONDON, BROWN - EDMONTON, DARE - SUFFOLK, BRAY - LIVERPOOL/CUMBRIA. MCMULLEN/KELLY/MILBURN/COLLINS/SUMPTON CUMBRIA
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Freckneale
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1755
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Hi Carole,
I wouldn't worry too much about his father being a builder's labourer on the marriage certificate and a carpenter earlier on. If Ernest Sr. was not around when his son got married (which seem likely since he married in London), then Ernest Jr. sort of got his father's profession right.
Hopefully the death cert will provide the missing piece of the puzzle.
However there is this marriage in 1931 which has me a bit concerned:
Marriages Sep qtr. 1931
Brown, Ernest T., Yarmouth, vol. 4b: 58
Basey, Beatrice M., Yarmouth, vol. 4b: 58
That couple seem to be having children in Yarmouth from 1932 to 1951, so it could not be the same man as your grandfather. It might be worth getting that marriage cert if only to confirm/rule out the birth cert that you have.
Good luck!
Alexander
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Freckneale
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1755
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Hi again Carole,
Sorry to say this, but I'm quite sure the Yarmouth birth cert you have is the wrong one.
I think that the father's name on the marriage cert is a simple error. I think Ernest's father's name was Arthur not Ernest. It may just be a mistake on the GRO copy. It might be worth contacting Edmonton Record Office to see if they would be willing to check the original register to see if it does say Arthur not Ernest.
My reasons why I think he was Arthur not Ernest:
- the census gives Arthur's occupation as Painter (Builder's), which fits perfectly in line with a builder's labourer
- Arthur's wife was Edith Caroline (Fitch), a perfect candidate for the witness E.C. Brown on the marriage certificate.
It's not unknown for GRO certs (or even the originals) to contain simple clerical errors...I have a GRO marriage cert of a man named Henry which gives his father as Henry, when in fact his father was definitely called Andrew. The original parish register had it correct.
So all in all I think you were on the right track to start with. The 1911 birth cert in Edmonton seems to be the correct one, as does the death in Warwickshire which fits with what you knew about the family. It's the marriage cert that has the mistake I think.
Hope this helps
Alexander
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aakarlhamo
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 53
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Thanks Alexander, that does sound reassuring and I shall get onto them about it tomorrow.
Yes, the information that you have just given me about the trade and Edith Caroline fits in more comfortably. Even my name of Carole sort of ties in too.
I had a marriage record that I was looking at for my friend's tree and the name should have been Collins but the clerk had written Collinson. The next entry was also written Collinson and the signature was Collison so I think the clerk was having a bad day.
Fingers crossed that it will be the case with Arthur.
I'll let you know the outcome and I feel better after reading your message because I was definitely confused.com ha ha
Carole
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HARMES - SUSSEX/HAMMERSMITH, SERJEANT - CAMBS/ LONON, ASSELL - KINGS LYNN/ LONDON, HENLEY - LONDON, SMART - CAMBS /LONDON,
COWLAND - ESSEX, PIERPOINT - LONDON, BROWN - EDMONTON, DARE - SUFFOLK, BRAY - LIVERPOOL/CUMBRIA. MCMULLEN/KELLY/MILBURN/COLLINS/SUMPTON CUMBRIA
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