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Topic: Marsh in the Royal Artillery (Read 301 times)
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hinch
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Posts: 19
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Hello
Does anyone have info on a Charles Frederick Marsh who was in the Royal Artillery - his birth details are not known to me yet - I can't find his birth record in Ireland if he was born there, if he was English born, then there are dozens of possible birth certificates that could be him - I don't know when or where he was born.
His father was William Marsh a Sgt Major in the RA. He married Christina Ludford in 1887 in Londonderry - her father was Thomas Ludford, also a Sgt Major in the RA.
They had a daughter - my great grandmother, Charlotte Victoria Marsh in 1887 still in Londonderry. Thomas, Fred and James later followed.
At somepoint they moved to Newcastle upon Tyne, Charles presumably left the RA and was working as a Railway Clerk when Christina died in 1897.
The first time they appear on the census is 1901, Charlotte, Fred, Thomas and James Marsh - all children born in Ireland, (except James - born in Northumberland) are in Newcastle Union Workhouse on Westgate Road. No sign of Charles.
According to family anecdotes, of which much of this fits in, Charles was in the army, Charlotte was born in barracks, they moved to Newcastle, when Christina died, Charles was left with the children, but one day he went to work and was never seen again. One theory was he relisted, abandoning his family, and went to the Boer War, just speculation though, he could just have been murdered, eloped or anything.
Any help would be appreciated as I've been stuck with this for ages
Thanks
Chris
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Names: Hinchliffe, Milner, Beilby, Norris, Willis, Durham, Colley, Marsh, Furze, Prince, Lee.
Places: Allerton-Bywater, Castleford, Thornhill, Overton, Shitlington, Seacroft, Cawood, Great Preston, Swillington, Methley, Wheldrake, St. Just.
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Valda
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On the 1891 census Charles Marsh appears in the Station Hopsital Portsmouth as a patient, a gunner in the Royal Artillery born circa 1869 Dorchester Dorset.
He maybe the same Charles Marsh who in 1881 appears as a private in 35th foot at Chichester barracks born circa 1867 Donnington Sussex.
Neither Charles Marsh born Donnington Sussex or Charles Marsh born Dorchester Dorset appears, in the case of the first on the 1891 census, in the case of the second on the 1881 census (but then either man could have been out of the country). Neither appears on the 1871 census (but again if Charles' father was in the army he could have been out of the country).
If both Charleses were the same man that would enable you to check the records of the 35th foot (he may have absconded and re-enlisted) through the quarterly paylists to see where and when he enlisted.
Regards
Valda
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hinch
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thanks for thar valda - I'll look into it further, cheers
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Names: Hinchliffe, Milner, Beilby, Norris, Willis, Durham, Colley, Marsh, Furze, Prince, Lee.
Places: Allerton-Bywater, Castleford, Thornhill, Overton, Shitlington, Seacroft, Cawood, Great Preston, Swillington, Methley, Wheldrake, St. Just.
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Valda
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I'd also bear in mind that the only information re Charles' father - William a sergeant in the R A, came from Charles himself (presumably on his marriage certificate). I'm not at all sure that Charles is in anyway a reliable witness so I wouldn't bank on his father actually haveing been a sergeant in the R A or maybe even being called William.
I did find on the 1871 census a Charles Marsh aged 2 in Westhampnett Sussex workhouse. I'm not saying this is your Charles Marsh just a potential candidate since so far nobody has appeared with a father in the army let alone the R A on the censuses (you can search on occupation on the 1881 census and in this case I also searched on 'pensioner' as well - but of course he could be dead by 1881). Potential Charleses in 1871 in Dorset and Sussex at least, were still with their families. Fathers called William were very thin on the ground let alone fathers in the army. This also goes for anyone born in Sussex or Dorset but living outside their county of birth.
The Charles Marsh in the union workhouse is enumerated with a birth place of Northshields Northumberland. If he grew up in Sussex without his family, he may not as an older man have known this, so that wouldn't necessarily rule him out. Also in the workhouse was Elizabeth Marsh again aged 2 born Northshields (workhouse ages can be a little vague so not necessarily a twin).
In Harting Sussex there is a Marsh family with one child born in 1867 in Northshields. The head of the family was Charles a naval pensioner. There seems no reason to believe the two children were his and his wife's (though it is possible) but they may very well be related. (On the 1891 census one of his son's was staying at home and gave 'cavalry' as his occupation which could be no more than a coincidence, but shows the family was at least inclined towards the military).
As far as I can see at present from the 1871 census (ruling out potential unknown families abroad) this Charles is a potential (no evidence at all to prove it) candidate. He does not appear on the 1881 census, but then young children in workhouses did of course suffer from a high mortality rate.
Regards
Valda
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hinch
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Thanks for your input. I think the problem is a combination of Charles Marsh being a common name, hence the census and birth certificate problem, and the fact that he may have been out of the country for many of the census nights.
I do have (or believe it is) Thomas Ludford on the 1881 census in Woolwich RA barracks, with his family including Christina Ludford, he is a Sgt Major of the RA, born in Sutton Coldfield (near B'ham).
Christina is named as been born in Ireland in c1870, her age ties in exactly to the death certificate, though she lied about it on her wedding certificate - which was in ireland. This has been checked with the Dublin record office, and no Christina Marsh was born then or a few years either way. Her birthplace could be mixed up with her siblings as they were born in Canada, Ireland, East Indies and Kent. Thomas's wife was Canadian also.
From the dates of birth (and extensive searching), it can be seen that the Ludfords were out of the country for most of the census returns.
There is a Thomas Ludford from Birmingham of the right age on the 1861 census also in the RA barracks at Woolwich as a RA private, this predates all his children birthdates on the 1881 census. Also on the same page is a William Marsh of the same rank. I'm not saying he is Charles father, but it is very possible that the two men knew each other before they were married and later their children married each other (Christina was 4 months pregnant on her wedding day calculating from Charlotte Marsh's birth date).
Given that the Ludfords were well travelled, and appear infrequently on the census it is possible the Marsh's were the same, therefore the census may be of little use, although those Marsh's mentioned in the earlier posting may be worth investigating with a birth certificate order from the GRO. (Even though the 1891 census names him as single when he was married by then - it could just be down to an unknowing doctor or whoever who filled out the returns on the patients behalf).
I do know Charles was alive in 1897 and resident in England as he was the informant of Christina Marsh's death. I also can assume that he was in Ireland until after the 1891 census from the ages / birth places of the Marsh children in the Newcastle workhouse in 1901, all were recognised as uncles by my grandad.
Anyway, thanks for taking an interest, its proving to be a tricky one this, hopefully it will be sorted out before long
Chris
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Names: Hinchliffe, Milner, Beilby, Norris, Willis, Durham, Colley, Marsh, Furze, Prince, Lee.
Places: Allerton-Bywater, Castleford, Thornhill, Overton, Shitlington, Seacroft, Cawood, Great Preston, Swillington, Methley, Wheldrake, St. Just.
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Valda
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I would check the army overseas birth registrations if you haven't already done so at the Family Records Centre for both Ludfords and Charles Marshes.
I cannot see the William Marsh from the 1861 census on any other census. Since you have a date and place, again I would track him through the quartely pay lists (muster rolls WO 10 - later WO 16 but I think incomplete or missing for battalions serving in India) to see what happened to him. If he reached sergeant he would have to have had some years service to establish that rank.
Since soldiers records are alphabetical by regiment up to the 1880s and then alphabetical I would check Royal Artillery attestation papers (they may not survive this early if the man did not receive a pension WO 116/127-185 for the RA - they go up to 1913 if Charles re-enlisted in the same regiment). There are also registers for the RA for deceased, discharged or deserted up to 1873 in WO 69/644-647, plus casualty returns in WO 25
You may have already checked out all of these but if you haven't it is worth having a further search.
It is also worth checking the muster rolls for your Charles Marsh to see whether the 1891 census return could have been him or was another Charles Marsh.
Regards
Valda
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