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Topic: identifying mother on a marriage cert (Read 482 times)
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annfor
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 12
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Does anyone know how to identify the groom's mother? Another researcher and I have a conundrum. Some generations back we have a Caroline SEABER married to a William COLLEN in my tree and a different William COLLEN on his! His William is the uncle of mine and they were born within 6 months of each other in the same town. Using circumstantial evidence (witnesses and grandson bearing the Seaber name) I think I have it. But Dave's pretty certain he is right too. Is there a foolproof way of sorting out which was the lucky man? Or is this just one of those mysteries??
annfor
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Dale
RootsChat Veteran
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Posts: 846
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Hi
You don't appear to give any dates nor any locations which may assist in answering your query. If after 1837 you can get the birth cert. which should name the mother.
If before 1837 you might have to search for a baptism and perhaps check against the censii.
If someone has replied privately my apologies.
Cheers
Marlene
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HUNTS: Fairy, Ding, Scotney, Swinton, Burgess, Brace
BEDS: Farey, Fairy, Young, Rootham, Gell, Wildman, Cooper. Deighton, Flavel.
NORTHANTS: Hills, Mobbs, Twelftrees,
DERBY: Fairey,
LONDON: Fairey, Fairy, Burgess, Williams, Tanser, Picknell, Vinall, Plampin, Mullins, Day, Folwell, Bamfield, Brown
WATFORD HERTS; Burgess, Williams
WARKS: Fairy, Ward, Stephens, Reeves, Hodgkiss, Byrne, Hunt, Edgeworth, Harper, Dudley,
WORCS: Callow, Lowe
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Valda
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 6896
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You presumably mean this marriage
From FreeBMD
Collen, William 1868 December Marriages Newmarket
Seabon or Seabur, Caroline 1868 December Marriages Newmarket
and this couple
1871 census RG10 1601 folio 78
Great Fen Drove Soham Cambridgeshire
William Collen 22 Soham, Cambridgeshire, Head Married Ag lab
Caroline Collen 22 Isleham, Cambridgeshire, Wife Married
George Collen 7 mths Isleham, Cambridgeshire, Son
living next door is James Collen aged 50 born Isleham, farmer 40 acres (employing) 2 men, with wife Rebecca aged 40 born Littleport and their family
and not this couple
1871 census RG 10 1600 folio 90
Isleham Cambridgeshire
William Collen 22 Isleham, Cambridgeshire, Head Married Turf merchant
Ann Collen 20 Isleham, Cambridgeshire, Wife Married
These two men are both with their respective families in 1861
1861 census RG9 1036 folio 75
Fen Soham Cambridgeshire
James Collen 40 Isleham, Cambridgeshire, Head Married Farmer and turf merchant 22 acres (employing) 1 man 1 boy
Rebecca Collen 32 Littleport, Cambridgeshire, Wife Married
William Collen 12 Soham, Cambridgeshire, Son
Susan Collen 10 Soham, Cambridgeshire, Daughter
Reuben Collen 6 Soham, Cambridgeshire, Son
Hannah Collen 3 Soham, Cambridgeshire, Daughter
Rebecca Collen 1 Soham, Cambridgeshire, Daughter
1861 census RG9 1035 folio 86 family written as Collin by census enumerator (but Collen on the 1851 census and on that census their first child was born circa 1837)
Bank Isleham Cambridgeshire
James Collin 60 Isleham, Cambridgeshire, Head Married Turf lab
Charlotte Collin 53 Chippenham, Cambridgeshire, Wife Married
Rebk Collin 20 Isleham, Cambridgeshire, Daughter
John Collin 16 Isleham, Cambridgeshire, Son Turf lab
Mary Collin 14 Isleham, Cambridgeshire, Daughter
William Collin 12 Isleham, Cambridgeshire, Son
Neither James Collen or his wife Charlotte show on the 1871 census.
From FreeBMD
Collen, James 1848 June Marriages Newmarket
Knott, Rebecca 1848 June Marriages Newmarket
From the IGI
JAMES COLLEN
CHARLOTTE NUNN
Marriage: 11 JUN 1829 Isleham, Cambridge
Regards
Valda
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annfor
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 12
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Thank you to both Dale & Valda for these responses. Yes, I do have birth details (from parish records) and marriage certs for both Williams but we still can't definitively say which one married Caroline SEABER since both marriage certs show father as James and neither, of course, gives mother's name. We do have death date of James as Mar 1871 (poss Mile End London) and & Charlotte (nee NUNN) Mar 1874 (poss Ely register) respectively. Caroline (nee SEABER) died in by drowning in 1915 and her William remarried and lived until 1931.
We still aren't sure how to define the mother of a particular groom and I ask as a quest for general guidance not only in this particular instance. Perhaps only by visiting the original parish register entries?
Yes, Valda, the spelling changes several times COLLEN/COLLENS/COLIN/COLLIN/COLLINS and so on! Doesn't help that it's a common name anyway you spell it!!
I really appreciate the feedback and if you come up with any ideas, will always be please to hear them.
regards
Annfor
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janan
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 4856
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Hi Ann
Am I missing something 
It looks very clear from the censuses that William born Soham son of James and Rebecca is the chap who married Caroline. William born Ishleham son of James and Charlotte married Ann.
But this could be low blood sugar talking 
Cheers Jan 
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ALL CENSUS DATA INCLUDED IN POSTINGS IS CROWN COPYRIGHT, FROM www.nationalarchives.gov.ukbedfordshire - farr, carver,handley, godfrey, newell, bird, emmerton, underwood,ancell buckinghamshire- pain cambridgeshire- bird, carver hertfordshire- conisbee, bean, saunders, quick,godfrey derbyshire- allsop, noon devon - griffin, love, rapsey dorset- rendall, gale somerset- rendall, churchill surrey/middlesex - douglas, conisbee, childs, lyon groombridge |
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janan
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 4856
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Thanks for not asking if I had lost the plot Jan! I got my line crossed there I think
I will ask you now though Gardener - in your editing you've got William and Caroline living next to James and Charlotte should be James and Rebecca
Jan
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ALL CENSUS DATA INCLUDED IN POSTINGS IS CROWN COPYRIGHT, FROM www.nationalarchives.gov.ukbedfordshire - farr, carver,handley, godfrey, newell, bird, emmerton, underwood,ancell buckinghamshire- pain cambridgeshire- bird, carver hertfordshire- conisbee, bean, saunders, quick,godfrey derbyshire- allsop, noon devon - griffin, love, rapsey dorset- rendall, gale somerset- rendall, churchill surrey/middlesex - douglas, conisbee, childs, lyon groombridge |
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Valda
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 6896
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1861 census RG9 1035 folio 87
Bank Isleham Cambridgeshire
William Seaber 59 Isleham, Cambridgeshire, Head Married Ag lab
Mary Seaber 59 Risbey, Cambridgeshire, Wife Married
Emily Seaber 20 Isleham, Cambridgeshire, Daughter deaf and blind from birth
Tabatha Seaber 16 Isleham, Cambridgeshire, Daughter
Caroline Seaber 14 Isleham, Cambridgeshire, Daughter
1871 census RG 10 1600 folio 90
Isleham Cambridgeshire
William Collen 22 Isleham, Cambridgeshire, Head Married Turf merchant
Ann Collen 20 Isleham, Cambridgeshire, Wife Married
Next household
James Collen abt 45 Isleham, Cambridgeshire, Head Married Turf merchant occupy 6a
Sarah Collen 42 Isleham, Cambridgeshire, Wife
William Collen 16 Isleham, Cambridgeshire, Son Blacksmith (apprentice)
Sarah A Collen 11 Isleham, Cambridgeshire, Daughter
Julia Collen 7 Isleham, Cambridgeshire, Daughter
Arthur Collen 1 Isleham, Cambridgeshire, Son
Next household the Griggs
And then
William Seaber 65 Isleham, Cambridgeshire, Head Married Labourer Farms 3 acres
Mary A Seaber 63 Risby, Suffolk, Wife Married
Emily Seaber 30 Isleham, Cambridgeshire, Daughter Blind from birth, deaf since
In 1871 Charlotte Collen was in Hackney, a widow visiting her married daughter Rebecca
Regards
Valda
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janan
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 4856
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I expect you were just in need of food 
Jan
When you get back Ann you'll be more unsure of who's who than ever 
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ALL CENSUS DATA INCLUDED IN POSTINGS IS CROWN COPYRIGHT, FROM www.nationalarchives.gov.ukbedfordshire - farr, carver,handley, godfrey, newell, bird, emmerton, underwood,ancell buckinghamshire- pain cambridgeshire- bird, carver hertfordshire- conisbee, bean, saunders, quick,godfrey derbyshire- allsop, noon devon - griffin, love, rapsey dorset- rendall, gale somerset- rendall, churchill surrey/middlesex - douglas, conisbee, childs, lyon groombridge |
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annfor
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 12
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Well what a flurry of activity. Yes, I believe that William & Caroline lived next door to his parents, James & Rebecca; several of his siblings (including my grandfather) moved in with them, presumably to make room in the parents' house. However, I can't absolutely prove which William it was and Dave (with whom I share a 5 g-grandfather) thought it was son of James and Charlotte - hence the problem. I'm going with my gut feeling and the coincidence of living next door and having family members etc.
However, although I'm fortunate in having some basis for my belief, there must be occasions when there is no coincidence to help. What do people do then?
While the correspondence is "hot", I'm looking for a George Collen (eldest son of William & Caroline) who is reputed to have gone to Canada and had two daughters, May & Elsie. I can't find out anything about him so if you come across a stray, please let me know!!
thanks for the feedback everyone.
Ann
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