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Topic: Help with dechipering Will text 1856 (Read 1158 times)
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AMBLY
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Hi there
Can anyone help me dechipher some text on an 1856 Will record?
It is signed in by John Latta, being the brother & executor of the deceased.
It says: "(signed) John Latta __ . __ . ____ at Dumbarton". I want to know what the text is (which looks like H.C. _____) directly after the John's name ("at Dumbarton" follows the undechipered text but is not in the image) below:
Thanks!
Anne
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 latta.jpg (7.94 KB, 319x85 - viewed 203 times.)
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PrueM
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Grandad Harry's back for another year!
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Could it be "W.C. Heele"?
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Paper and Photograph Conservator
I live in NSW, and am researching:
BALFOUR (Derry) BIGG (Kent) BONSALL (DBY, NTT, CHS) BRISBANE (Fife) DANKS (STS) DOBSON (BRK) FRANCIS (ESS) GOODE (HAM) HAYNES (Cork) INGRAM (MDX, SOM) LANGWORTHY (Jersey, DEV) MCKAY (Fife, Aberdeen, Banff, Moray, Inverness) MORRISH (LND) NANCARROW (CON) OGILVIE (Moray, LND) STRATHDEE (Banff) SWAN (Fife) WOOD (LND)
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PrueM
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No, no - I think it's "Steele"! IN fact I'm pretty sure.
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Paper and Photograph Conservator
I live in NSW, and am researching:
BALFOUR (Derry) BIGG (Kent) BONSALL (DBY, NTT, CHS) BRISBANE (Fife) DANKS (STS) DOBSON (BRK) FRANCIS (ESS) GOODE (HAM) HAYNES (Cork) INGRAM (MDX, SOM) LANGWORTHY (Jersey, DEV) MCKAY (Fife, Aberdeen, Banff, Moray, Inverness) MORRISH (LND) NANCARROW (CON) OGILVIE (Moray, LND) STRATHDEE (Banff) SWAN (Fife) WOOD (LND)
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AMBLY
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Thanks Prue
I think you're rght - W.C.Steele - rats  I was hoping it might be some indictation of John's occupation "....at Dumbarton". Perhaps the WC Steele was witnessing the signature of John, though in the context of the whole document, witnessess were ususally indicated at such.... but perhaps that particular section written by that particular clerk entering in the death record of the testator, didn't do that. I know who John is in as much as he was brother of deceased William LATTA & who their parents were, but after that I don't know for example, who John married if he did.
Thanks again for your help!
Anne
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PrueM
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No probs Anne, glad to be of help.
By the way, what nationality is the name Latta? I've not heard it before.
Prue
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Paper and Photograph Conservator
I live in NSW, and am researching:
BALFOUR (Derry) BIGG (Kent) BONSALL (DBY, NTT, CHS) BRISBANE (Fife) DANKS (STS) DOBSON (BRK) FRANCIS (ESS) GOODE (HAM) HAYNES (Cork) INGRAM (MDX, SOM) LANGWORTHY (Jersey, DEV) MCKAY (Fife, Aberdeen, Banff, Moray, Inverness) MORRISH (LND) NANCARROW (CON) OGILVIE (Moray, LND) STRATHDEE (Banff) SWAN (Fife) WOOD (LND)
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AMBLY
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Hi Prue
 I though I had an Italian great-granny when I first come across her LATTO name! She was from Fife. LATTO & LATTA are variations of the name (also LATO, LATA, LATOE, LATTOW, LATTY, LATTIE and more ) going back generations, to the 1500-1600's in Scotland, particularly Fife (predominantly LATTO) Ayr, Dunbarton, Renfrew (LATTA) and also in Ireland. The roots of the name is subject to much discussion, from Spanish, Moors, Italian... there are LATTA's that appear in records of Russians, Nordics, Italians.
The LATTA name has it's own website, that is very much concerned with the Irish-American connections: http://www.latta.org/
I am interested more in the Scots side of it and my facination with the name has led to a One-Name type of study of them as my hobby - keeps me occupied . Presently I am trying to tie up the Dumbarton LATTAs.
Cheers
Anne
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PrueM
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Hi Rob,
I can see how it could conceivably be HALL but I am not convinced this is so. There are no other capital Hs in the document (at least not in the little bit that we have to work from) and there is the question of the leading stroke to that letter, which looks to me like the bottom left of a letter S. However I will admit that the secondary strokes on all the letters in the "signatures" seem to be extremely faded if not invisible, so it's possible that this is an H. I'm not sure that the second letter is an "a". The second and third strokes in the name are very strongly similar and it would be unusual if this was an "a". The other "a"s in the "signatures are quite strongly formed, except for this one.
The first letter is definitely a W. Of that I'm sure. The strokes are not missing, they are just invisible in this scan, and possibly in the original document, due to fading. There would be an upstroke (invisible) then the strong downstroke (visible) then another invisible up, and another visible down, and lastly another invisible up.
I stand by my diagnosis that the name is Steele, but am willing to be proved wrong with good evidence!
Prue
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Paper and Photograph Conservator
I live in NSW, and am researching:
BALFOUR (Derry) BIGG (Kent) BONSALL (DBY, NTT, CHS) BRISBANE (Fife) DANKS (STS) DOBSON (BRK) FRANCIS (ESS) GOODE (HAM) HAYNES (Cork) INGRAM (MDX, SOM) LANGWORTHY (Jersey, DEV) MCKAY (Fife, Aberdeen, Banff, Moray, Inverness) MORRISH (LND) NANCARROW (CON) OGILVIE (Moray, LND) STRATHDEE (Banff) SWAN (Fife) WOOD (LND)
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AMBLY
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Hi Prue , and Rob
Thanks again for your help! This is my first ever will and I think I have been lucky to get one that actually is in a very good hand. Maybe I have been remiss in not understanding enough to explain properly, that this is an extraction of a will preceded by admission to the books of the Commissiary Court, the will itself, then the depositon of the death and finally the "Proven" bit.
The general text of the document is written in what I believe is "Secretary Hand" and the trancriptions of (I suppose?) original signatures have been written in more of a "Copperplate" style
Looking at the document again - and it's 2 sheets of paper that contains the end of one will record, the whole of the LATTA one and the start of another - I think now it's all written (extracted?) by the same person. The first initial I do now think is W - the capital H's and N's of people's signatures elsewhere are entirely different .
The surname- at first I thought perhaps HALL too. But I was wavering - I have to say I think it might be STEELE now, and the strokes are faint.
I know the testators occupation (Steamboat master) as Rob says, this is in the first sentence of the will - it was the John LATTA , deposing to the Court on the event of the death of his brother in whom I was interested, hoping to learn his occupation which may have let me match him up to other John LATTA data I have on file. I was led to the hope by the form of the text ie: "
John Latta --- --- ----- at Dumbarton", thinking perhaps incorrectly that "at Dumbarton" would have followed John's name, and then again after W C's name, if it were two people. W C Steele I really do think it is now!
I am satisfied it's not an occupation for John anyway, but happy to send you more of the document by email if you want to satisfy yourself one way or t'other, just PM me the address
Sorry for the ramble  Now, if you want, I have another bit of it that I am really just curious about:
What is the  part of that word in this text that reads:
" Mrs Janet Latta wife of Robert Falconer ???ozier in Glasgow....." Is it, again, an occupation?
(Falconer is split in the two lines). I know he was surname FALCONER ( he died before the testator and by the time the will was proved Janet was "wife of Andrew MacTear) theretofore Falconer widow..."
Cheers
Anne
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PrueM
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Wow, that' s a tough one 
To me it looks like either "Soozier" or "Wozier", I'm not convinced that what looks like the first of two "o"s is an o at all. I think it may be a different letter, or part of the initial letter. I've tried to think of occupations that might end with "zier" but all I've come up with are:
Glazier
Brazier
Grazier
...
Be glad to look at it further, have you got a higher res scan you can post?
Of course it may not be an occupation, could it possibly be a name?
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Paper and Photograph Conservator
I live in NSW, and am researching:
BALFOUR (Derry) BIGG (Kent) BONSALL (DBY, NTT, CHS) BRISBANE (Fife) DANKS (STS) DOBSON (BRK) FRANCIS (ESS) GOODE (HAM) HAYNES (Cork) INGRAM (MDX, SOM) LANGWORTHY (Jersey, DEV) MCKAY (Fife, Aberdeen, Banff, Moray, Inverness) MORRISH (LND) NANCARROW (CON) OGILVIE (Moray, LND) STRATHDEE (Banff) SWAN (Fife) WOOD (LND)
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Little Nell
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Personally, I would have said it was Hozier. There is a Robert Falconer, hosier of Glasgow, listed in the Scottish wills index. There is also a John Latta, draper whose will was proved in 1866 in Dumbarton. Isabella Latta, daughter of William Latta also left a will. William's will also seems to be listed, along with many others.
I suspect W.C. Steele is correct - William Cunninghame Steele was the Sheriff-Substitute for Stirling and Dumbarton during the 19th century and lived in Dumbarton. He died in 1881 or so.
The handwriting you have here is very common for mid 19th century clerk copying this into the register. Once you get you eye in, it can be very rewarding. But it is always the names which cause the most problems - they are the one thing you can't guess at from the context!
Nell
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AMBLY
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Hi Prue & Nell!
Thanks ! I thought it may have began with a "L" as it looked like the "L" in Latta but I couldn't think/find what a Loozier was I don't believe its a name, though I did wonder why would Falconer be described by his occupation "in Glasgow" while the others (Isabella, Janet, Catherine Ann & John Latta) are all only described as "residing in Dumbarton"?
But I think Nell is right on this one, & with the hint, I search thru the doc and find the writer scribing another capital H in the "Secretary Hand" (not on my will but on the partial one preceding it).
In the first Image below, the 1st two full words in the 2nd line reads " Henry Page", referring to the same, as written in the other lettering style above it - I never would have gotten "H" were it not for the context of the rest of the text!
Then 2nd image is a smaller example of the word I now agree is probably Hozier?
Cheers
Anne
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will4b.jpg (22.39 KB, 599x123 - viewed 153 times.)
will3b.jpg (5.46 KB, 270x55 - viewed 153 times.)
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AMBLY
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Hi Nell,
I just read the rest of yr msg (when it first come up it just seemed to say you thought it was Hozier, I'm sure it did, please please tell me I'm not dreaming  )
Hozier it is, I was just about to off and hunt for Robert FALCONER the Hozier, you found him thanks!
And W C Steele it is, surely the Willianm Cunningham Steele you mentioned (where did you find that info , I was Googling but didn't match him)
John LATTA the Draper, I saw him - but there is also another candidate, John LATTA the farmer whose will or TD was proved in 1874 in Dumbarton.
The Isabella LATTA you mention (whose will was proven exactly 2 weeks before that of John the Farmer) I believe is the same spinster sister of the William LATTA Jnr whose Will I have.There is also documents which relate to the bankrupcy of an Isabella LATTA, Banker of DUmbarton - which I think is her also.
Thanks for all - I have enjoyed working out this document - you're right, the text is actually quite beautiful I think, and fairly easy to understand once you get the eye for it! Well half an eye,I'm still a bit squinty on it in one eye - I'll get Isabella's next budget round and see what happens with that one
Anne
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Little Nell
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Hi Anne,
I confess, I posted only a short message to begin with, but modified it as I found more. I just searched the Scottish wills index for other names and looked at those most likely.
It's amazing what you can find out with a little bit of lateral thinking!
Nell
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