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Topic: John Jose Ley (Read 244 times)
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coonwarra
RootsChat Veteran
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Posts: 608
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John Jose Ley was born in Barstaple around 1857. In the 1881 census he was a Footman living in the household of John C Marshall in Wentworth House, Slade Road, Ilfracombe.
I am trying to find out what happened to him after this date and would appreciate any assistance with this.
Thank you
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Ireland: Arlour, Arlow, Hammond, Hannah, Shanks
Scotland: Allan, Black, Carlyle, Corkingdale, Fleeting, Grant, Hammond, Hannah, Kirkwood, Lothian, McFarlane, Neilson, Shanks, Sneddon, Wood
Sussex/Hampshire/Surrey/London/Kent: Beagley, Douch, Earl, Ladyman, Pattenden, Peskett, Standen, Stonestreet, Windiate
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coonwarra
RootsChat Veteran
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Posts: 608
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Priscilla
Thanks very much for this information.
Regards
Andrew
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Ireland: Arlour, Arlow, Hammond, Hannah, Shanks
Scotland: Allan, Black, Carlyle, Corkingdale, Fleeting, Grant, Hammond, Hannah, Kirkwood, Lothian, McFarlane, Neilson, Shanks, Sneddon, Wood
Sussex/Hampshire/Surrey/London/Kent: Beagley, Douch, Earl, Ladyman, Pattenden, Peskett, Standen, Stonestreet, Windiate
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Priscilla
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 66
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Hi there,
Further searching on the IGI has come up with the Christening of Esther Bowler on 17.1.1858 at Sutton Cum Duckmanton, Derby.
Her father was James Samuel Bowler and her mother Mary.
She also had a brother - John Bowler - Christened 20.10.1861 at Sutton Cum Duckmanton, Derby.
On the 1881 Census Esther Bowler is listed as follows:-
Dwelling: Wharf, Newbold & Dunston, Derby.
Edward Minter - Head - Married - Male - 47 years - Born Wortham Suffolk England - Occupation Lab in Iron Works
Anne Minter - Wife - Married - Female - 43 years - Born Newbold, Derby.
William H. Minter - Son - Unmarried - Male - 23 years - Born Newbold, Derby - Occupation Sawyer.
Francis Minter - Son - Unmarried - Male - 20 years - Born Newbold, Derby - Occupation Fetler in Iron Works.
Esther Bowler - Visistor - Unmarried - Female - 23 years - Duckmanton, Derby - Occupation Dressmaker.
Further delving on FreeBMD
Marriage 4th Quarter 1856 James Samuel Bowler to Mary Wingfield - Chesterfield - Vol 7B - Page 963.
Kind Regards,
Priscilla
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Eccles (Hoylake and Exeter). Hicks (Devonport, Plymouth). Grafton (Exeter). Harris (Marazion). Collard (Yeovil). Johns (Devonport, Plymouth). Lyle (Bude, Cornwall).
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coonwarra
RootsChat Veteran
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Posts: 608
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Hi Priscilla
Thanks very much for this.
I must admit that I am a little confused now. Esther's place of birth on the 1901 census is given as Chesham, Bucks but the 1881 census details show Duckmanton, Derby.
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Ireland: Arlour, Arlow, Hammond, Hannah, Shanks
Scotland: Allan, Black, Carlyle, Corkingdale, Fleeting, Grant, Hammond, Hannah, Kirkwood, Lothian, McFarlane, Neilson, Shanks, Sneddon, Wood
Sussex/Hampshire/Surrey/London/Kent: Beagley, Douch, Earl, Ladyman, Pattenden, Peskett, Standen, Stonestreet, Windiate
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Priscilla
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 66
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Hi there,
Well, our ancestors used to tell a lot of porkies!!! 
And there's more!
1881 Census on the IGI gives John Bowler as a Boarder, aged 19, Born Derby, Occupation: Clicker (Shoes) living at 126 Stoughton Street, Leicester St Margaret, Leicester. Head of the household is one Joseph Hampton and his wife Mary A. Hampton.
Priscilla.
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Eccles (Hoylake and Exeter). Hicks (Devonport, Plymouth). Grafton (Exeter). Harris (Marazion). Collard (Yeovil). Johns (Devonport, Plymouth). Lyle (Bude, Cornwall).
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Valda
RootsChat Moderator
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Posts: 7446
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1891 census RG12 129 folio 25
8 Kentish Town Road St Pancras London
Ley, John abt 1859 Barnstaple, Devon, Lodger Single Painter
from FreeBMD
Bowler, Esther 1888 June Marriages Chesterfield Derbyshire
Minter, William Henry 1888 June Marriages Chesterfield
From the 1901 census
RG13 4390 folio 71 Treeton Yorkshire
William H Minter abt 1858 Chesterfield, Derbyshire, Head
Esther Minter abt 1858 Duckmanton, Derbyshire, Wife
Francis W Minter abt 1890 Chesterfield, Derbyshire, Son
Winifred Minter abt 1895 North Wingfield, Derbyshire, Daughter
Regards
Valda
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coonwarra
RootsChat Veteran
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Posts: 608
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So, presumably we are dealing with 2 Esther Bowlers?
It's very strange that no birth could be found for John's wife in Chesham, Bucks.
Any ideas?
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Ireland: Arlour, Arlow, Hammond, Hannah, Shanks
Scotland: Allan, Black, Carlyle, Corkingdale, Fleeting, Grant, Hammond, Hannah, Kirkwood, Lothian, McFarlane, Neilson, Shanks, Sneddon, Wood
Sussex/Hampshire/Surrey/London/Kent: Beagley, Douch, Earl, Ladyman, Pattenden, Peskett, Standen, Stonestreet, Windiate
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Valda
RootsChat Moderator
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Posts: 7446
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If she was born Esther Bowler in Chesham the registers have not been deposited and only recently have photocopies of some pages been made. They are not therefore on the IGI (which is a very incomplete index of baptisms anyway especially by 1858). Chesham had a lot of non-conformism - with not much surviving register wise past 1837. Chesham births post 1837 would be registered as Amersham district. No birth registered for Esther Bowler in Amersham in FreeBMD but then that is an incomplete index - you would also need to check for Hester and Ester
Since you do not have the marriage certificate as you say you do not know whether this was Esther's first or second marriage and whether Bowler was actually her maiden name or not. She would have been at least 40 in 1898 at the time of her marriage so could easily have been married before. Searching for anyone pre 1901 called Esther Bowler could therefore prove fruitless, depending on the length of her first marriage if one occurred. On the 1901 census she could have given Chesham as the nearest large place the enumerator may have known, instead of one of the nearby villages to Chesham (if she gave the information at all - it may have been given by her husband). She may also have adjusted her age for the benefit of her new husband.
To search for her further really requires some more information and the obvious record which would give you the necessary information is the marriage certificate from her marriage in 1898.
Regards
Valda
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coonwarra
RootsChat Veteran
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Posts: 608
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Valda
This is very informative - thank you very much for taking the time to explain it to me.
Priscilla
I appreciate your assistance with this.
Thanks again
Andrew
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Ireland: Arlour, Arlow, Hammond, Hannah, Shanks
Scotland: Allan, Black, Carlyle, Corkingdale, Fleeting, Grant, Hammond, Hannah, Kirkwood, Lothian, McFarlane, Neilson, Shanks, Sneddon, Wood
Sussex/Hampshire/Surrey/London/Kent: Beagley, Douch, Earl, Ladyman, Pattenden, Peskett, Standen, Stonestreet, Windiate
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coonwarra
RootsChat Veteran
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Posts: 608
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Hi Priscilla
I don't understand this at all I'm afraid as Valda found William H Minter living with his wife Esther in Yorkshire in the 1901 census.
Regards
Andrew
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Ireland: Arlour, Arlow, Hammond, Hannah, Shanks
Scotland: Allan, Black, Carlyle, Corkingdale, Fleeting, Grant, Hammond, Hannah, Kirkwood, Lothian, McFarlane, Neilson, Shanks, Sneddon, Wood
Sussex/Hampshire/Surrey/London/Kent: Beagley, Douch, Earl, Ladyman, Pattenden, Peskett, Standen, Stonestreet, Windiate
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Valda
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Posts: 7446
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On the 1891 census there are 17 William Minters in Kent alone (65 in the whole of England). There are 6 on the census with a birth year within one year of 1859, so it is not inconceivable to believe one of these actually died in Kent in 1895, and was not the William Henry Minter who is shown as very much alive and living with his wife Esther nee Bowler in Yorkshire in 1901.
Even if we ignore the evidence of the 1901 census and the couple's two children born in 1890 and 1895 in Derbyshire, and we do presume this William Henry Minter did die in Kent in 1895, why would his widow marry John Ley in the name of Esther Bowler and not her married name of Esther Minter?
In the nineteenth century it would be inconceivable that a widow would drop her legal married name and marry again in her maiden name. Some divorced women today revert to their maiden names, but many don't, often because their children have their exhusband's surname. I don't know of one instance in the C19th where a widow reverted to her maiden name. It would be seen to be extremely disrespectful to her dead husband, his family and also to her own children.
Regards
Valda
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