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Topic: Forest of Dean family (Read 770 times)
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Hackstaple
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I am looking for Thomas Southern who lived in the West Country in 1881 and earlier. He lived at various times in Colwall, Chepstow and the Forest of Dean, where he was a miner but a farm labourer on other occasions, probably on the Carter's Piece farms. That places him at English Bicknor in 1881.
He married a woman named Mary Ann [maiden name unknown] and had 4 children by her - William, Tom, Florence Harriet and Gertrude [who died young].
I need to establish Thomas's place of birth and what Mary Ann's maiden name was.
William had at least one son so he may be in your lineage and so then is Thomas.
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« Last Edit: Sunday 15 August 04 09:58 BST (UK) by Hackstaple »
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Southern or Southan [Hereford , Monmouthshire & Glos], Jenkins, Meredith and Morgan [Monmouthshire and Glos.], Murrill, Damary, Damry, Ray, Lawrence [all Middx. & London], Nethway from Kenn or Yatton. Also Riley and Lyons in South Africa. Any census information included in this post is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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sandiep
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Hi,
do you have any dates at all for any of these it much easier!!!to search if you have a rough idea of ages of people
see what else you can put down and I will have another look
quite a few in 1871 more in 1891 and a few in 1901 of that name so might be lucky sandie
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Pender, Raphael,Lambert,Digby,Stent, Dowell,cornish,mulley,Death,Rosier, East End,Suffolk,Essex,Cornwall,Devon,London, middlesex, hertfordshire Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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Hackstaple
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Sorry - I missed this reply Sandy.
Thomas Southern was born about 1845 and most probably in Herefordshire. The whole family appears in the 1881 census
at Bicknor St. English Bicknor]
Thomas 35 - said to be born at Colwell, Herefordshire [probably Colwall]
Mary Ann - wife - 30 - Abergavenny
William Albert 12
Tom age 7
Florence Harriet 4
Gertrude 2.
All of the children are shown as being born at Colwell.
I find no birth record for any of the children, anywhere.
By the 1891 census Mary Anne is head of the family, living at West Dean, Gloucs. With her
William 21 b. Chepstow!
Tom 16 and Harriet age 13 - both born at English Bicknor.
I have not found a marriage record for Thomas and Mary Anne either.
Thomas should appear on the 1851, 1861 and 1871 censuses. The latter is incomplete and I have no way of accessing the first two nor would I know what place to find him in!!!
That's my pickle and that's my brick wall.
Best wishes
Victor
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Southern or Southan [Hereford , Monmouthshire & Glos], Jenkins, Meredith and Morgan [Monmouthshire and Glos.], Murrill, Damary, Damry, Ray, Lawrence [all Middx. & London], Nethway from Kenn or Yatton. Also Riley and Lyons in South Africa. Any census information included in this post is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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sandiep
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BIRTH
SOUTHERN, Thomas June 1845 Ludlow Herefordshire Shropshire Volume 18 Page 71
have you tried this one sandie
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« Last Edit: Wednesday 08 June 05 09:02 BST (UK) by Copyright_editor. »
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Pender, Raphael,Lambert,Digby,Stent, Dowell,cornish,mulley,Death,Rosier, East End,Suffolk,Essex,Cornwall,Devon,London, middlesex, hertfordshire Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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sandiep
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BIRTH
Southern, Gertrude March 1879 Monmouth (1837-1939) Gloucestershire Herefordshire Monmouthshire Volume 11a Page 29
another possible sandie
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« Last Edit: Wednesday 08 June 05 09:01 BST (UK) by Copyright_editor. »
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Pender, Raphael,Lambert,Digby,Stent, Dowell,cornish,mulley,Death,Rosier, East End,Suffolk,Essex,Cornwall,Devon,London, middlesex, hertfordshire Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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Hackstaple
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Sandie
Great, thanks. I had already earmarked the entry for little Gertrude and had resolved to send away for her birth certificate this week but that entry for Thomas is new to me. The age seems to be about right as well. I am expecting a death certificate this week for a Thomas d.1890 b.1845. If I can link them and it is the right Thomas, wife's name on the death certificate, then I am through a brick wall.
Cheers!
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Southern or Southan [Hereford , Monmouthshire & Glos], Jenkins, Meredith and Morgan [Monmouthshire and Glos.], Murrill, Damary, Damry, Ray, Lawrence [all Middx. & London], Nethway from Kenn or Yatton. Also Riley and Lyons in South Africa. Any census information included in this post is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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Hackstaple
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Sandie
From little Gertrude's birth certificate I solved two mysteries - her mother's maiden name, which was Davis, I had her before as simply Mary Ann- and next I found her birthplace to be Coldwell, which is in English Bicknor, Gloucestershire and not Colwall [which doesn't exist in the general area] or Colwell, Herefordshire. The confusion arose from the census man writing "Colwall, Herfordshire". Meanwhile the place was Coldwell, about a quarter-mile, I think, from where he was standing or sitting.
That was especially interesting as I have an antique print of Coldwell from 1830!
I mention all this as I know you have relatives from the same area.
I also received the birth certificate for Thomas Southern 1845. I wish this was the Thomas I am looking for but I am not sure. If it was him it would be easy to go back another generation or two as his mother's maiden name was Beniams [father Edward Southern] - but I will have to find more facts to claim this one.
Thanks for your help.
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Southern or Southan [Hereford , Monmouthshire & Glos], Jenkins, Meredith and Morgan [Monmouthshire and Glos.], Murrill, Damary, Damry, Ray, Lawrence [all Middx. & London], Nethway from Kenn or Yatton. Also Riley and Lyons in South Africa. Any census information included in this post is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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sandiep
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Hi thats good news on the gertrude certificate perhaps you will find more now.
My certificate for Mary Elizabeth was a no go she died before Frances was born so its back to the drawing board for me.
let me know how you get on sandie
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Pender, Raphael,Lambert,Digby,Stent, Dowell,cornish,mulley,Death,Rosier, East End,Suffolk,Essex,Cornwall,Devon,London, middlesex, hertfordshire Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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Hackstaple
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Back to Thomas Southern again. From his daughter Gertrude's birth cerificate I have found out his wife Mary Ann's maiden name - Mary Ann Davis born in Abergavenny. She claimed to be 30 in the 1881 census and 37 by the time of the1891 affair. The only resources I have are freeBMD and the BVRI. These give 3 possibles Mar 1849 Vol. 26 P49 - Jun 1849 26/59 - Mar 1852 11a/50 [all Monmouth]. I suspect Mary Ann Davis in Monmouthshire to be about as rare as mice in a haystack. I cannot see that even buying all 3 birth certificates will help me one bit. I need to find her marriage to Thomas Southern and that would have been about 1867 or so.
Reverting back to Thomas, I have found what appears to be his death certificate in 1890 but the only likely birth certificate was in Bitterley, Staffordshire on 31 May 1845 and, bitterly I have to say that was £7 wasted. I doubt very much that this was the right Thomas Southern.
All indications lead me to suspect that Thomas was born in the Forest of Dean and perhaps in Coldwell, English Bicknor about 1841.
Does any kind person have the resources to check the 1851, 1861 and 1871 censuses for that district?
Alternately, can anyone find the marriage of Thomas to Mary Ann. Would that have been at Abergavenny [her home town] or had Mary Ann been working in the Forest area? The timing is poor to discover her as she would have been too young to work in 1861 and was almost certainly the wife of Thomas by 1871.
I am sorry this is a long request.
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« Last Edit: Tuesday 14 September 04 21:57 BST (UK) by Hackstaple »
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Southern or Southan [Hereford , Monmouthshire & Glos], Jenkins, Meredith and Morgan [Monmouthshire and Glos.], Murrill, Damary, Damry, Ray, Lawrence [all Middx. & London], Nethway from Kenn or Yatton. Also Riley and Lyons in South Africa. Any census information included in this post is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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sandiep
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Southern, Charles 1873 March Monmouth (1837-1939) Gloucestershire Herefordshire Monmouthshire 11a 32
Southern, Florence Harriet 1898 September Monmouth (1837-1939) Gloucestershire Herefordshire Monmouthshire 11a 50
Southern, George John 1889 March Cardiff (1837-1974) Glamorgan Monmouthshire 11a 454
Southern, George Thomas 1873 December Newport M Glamorgan Gwent Monmouthshire 11a 398
Southern, Gertrude 1899 March Monmouth (1837-1939) Gloucestershire Herefordshire Monmouthshire 11a 33
Southern, Henry 1900 December Bedwelty Monmouthshire 11a 231
Southern, Mary Ann 1893 September Monmouth (1837-1939) Gloucestershire Herefordshire Monmouthshire 11a 51
Southern, Thomas 1872 September Newport M Glamorgan Gwent Monmouthshire 11a 343
Southern, Walter 1849 March Newport M Glamorgan Gwent Monmouthshire 26 116
Hi me again
this is some marriages
interesting is Florence Harriet
Gertrude and Mary Ann Southern who married in 1893 to a John Edwards(only name down) this is 3 years after thomas's death so maybe
I looked at the thomas on here but didnt have right names.
what do you think sandie
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« Last Edit: Wednesday 08 June 05 09:04 BST (UK) by Copyright_editor. »
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Pender, Raphael,Lambert,Digby,Stent, Dowell,cornish,mulley,Death,Rosier, East End,Suffolk,Essex,Cornwall,Devon,London, middlesex, hertfordshire Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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sandiep
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Davis, Mary Ann March 1852 Abergavenny Herefordshire Monmouthshire Volume 11a Page 50
another birth for you to ponder there are several in area as you say name is shall we say common not meaning to be rude of course!!
havent found a marriage yet though sandie
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« Last Edit: Wednesday 08 June 05 09:05 BST (UK) by Copyright_editor. »
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Pender, Raphael,Lambert,Digby,Stent, Dowell,cornish,mulley,Death,Rosier, East End,Suffolk,Essex,Cornwall,Devon,London, middlesex, hertfordshire Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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sandiep
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Davis, Mary Ann 1849 June Abergavenny Herefordshire Monmouthshire 26 59
Davis, Mary Ann 1849 March Abergavenny Herefordshire Monmouthshire 26 49
2 more births will stop now before you go into overload sandie 
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Pender, Raphael,Lambert,Digby,Stent, Dowell,cornish,mulley,Death,Rosier, East End,Suffolk,Essex,Cornwall,Devon,London, middlesex, hertfordshire Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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Hackstaple
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Hi Sandie
We must stop meeting like this. I have all 3 of the Mary Ann Davis from Abergavenny but would have no method of knowing which is which. Gertrude' s birth is the one that gave me the surname Davis.
A remarriage to John Edwards however - that could be valuable as on that certificate I suppose I would find her maiden name - with luck.
Florence Harriett appear to have married a Robert Jordan Sept 1898 but I am not following that path as yet as it does nothing for my direct ancestral line.
Getting there slowly but as you know with Mary Elizabeth it is easy to take a wrong turning and get pulled off into a completely bogus path.
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Southern or Southan [Hereford , Monmouthshire & Glos], Jenkins, Meredith and Morgan [Monmouthshire and Glos.], Murrill, Damary, Damry, Ray, Lawrence [all Middx. & London], Nethway from Kenn or Yatton. Also Riley and Lyons in South Africa. Any census information included in this post is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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Hackstaple
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Thanks everyone. I found Thomas hiding under the name Southan so I am now hunting his father John Southan [b. about 1796] who lived at Huntisham, Herefordshire in 1841 and 1851 and his mother Mary? who was born in English Bicknor about 1802.
Eventually I will find their marriage record and Mary's maiden name.
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Southern or Southan [Hereford , Monmouthshire & Glos], Jenkins, Meredith and Morgan [Monmouthshire and Glos.], Murrill, Damary, Damry, Ray, Lawrence [all Middx. & London], Nethway from Kenn or Yatton. Also Riley and Lyons in South Africa. Any census information included in this post is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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Hackstaple
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It does pay to put your interests on as many genealogical web sites as possible. I have in this week had 2 contacts from New Zealand. One lady is related to me distantly through a common GGGfather in Middlesex and I think I can be of more help to her than she to me but that is good. That one came through Genes Reunited.
The other came from a posting I made on the Forest of Dean Family History site - totally free, like this but tiny. I had forgotten the posting,made some months ago, and I had solved most of the problem anyway [via Rootsweb]. Out of the blue a kind lady sent me an extract from the 1871 census that unexpectedly solved a name mystery [an obvious error by LDS] but also told me something completely new. My GGGmother, when widowed, earned a living as a needlewoman and on the census she is described as Cripple.
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Southern or Southan [Hereford , Monmouthshire & Glos], Jenkins, Meredith and Morgan [Monmouthshire and Glos.], Murrill, Damary, Damry, Ray, Lawrence [all Middx. & London], Nethway from Kenn or Yatton. Also Riley and Lyons in South Africa. Any census information included in this post is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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