Author Topic: GRAVES Thomas Henry  (Read 18728 times)

Offline trish1120

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Re: GRAVES Thomas Henry
« Reply #9 on: Thursday 10 October 13 17:02 BST (UK) »
It all adds up to me but as you say hard to prove. But the Butcher occp seems to clinch it for me :)
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Offline rosie99

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Re: GRAVES Thomas Henry
« Reply #10 on: Thursday 10 October 13 17:16 BST (UK) »

- and there's a death of Thomas Hand in Croydon in the Mar quarter 1850! I wonder if he was a butcher?!

He was buried 3 January 1850 at Mitcham age 76 (needless to say no occupation )
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Offline bedfordshire boy

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Re: GRAVES Thomas Henry
« Reply #11 on: Thursday 10 October 13 17:56 BST (UK) »
I'm usually mister ultra conservative, never prone to flights of fancy. OK, this is an exception.

There are no Graves baptisms in Linton, yet two brothers Thomas and James claim to have been born there, Thomas on 10 Mar 1819 and James c1825. There are no male Graves marriages in Linton nor any Graves burials. There are no Graves keyword Linton in any census other than Thomas and James. James' 1865 marriage names his father as Thomas, a butcher. And so a brick wall is looming rapidly.

Now the cloud cuckoo land theory starts

The only Graves in Linton is the marriage between Thomas Hand and Sarah Graves in 1816 (I've asked for a look up if anyone can fill us in on any other detail) - later Rosie has kindly provided the following "29 October 1816 at Linton Bachelor & spinster botp wit Wm Graves, MA Tomlinson & Josiah Battyl". So who was William Graves? I'll worry about him tomorrow!

This couple then baptised
Thomas Hand born 10 Mar 1818
Mary Ann Hand bap 28 Mar 1823
James Hand born 2 Nov 1824
Then they disappear from Linton.
There's a Removal Order dated 10 Aug 1832 removing Thomas and Sarah Hand and their three children from Cambridge St Giles to Cambridge St Sepulchre, which might be them, particularly as Hand is not a common name.

A Sarah Hand age 41 was buried in Cambridge St Mary the Great in 1834

In 1841 there's a Thomas Hand, 40, butcher, living in Cambridge St Clement, and there's the death of a Thomas Hand in the Mar quarter 1850 in Croydon reg district. Why did people always die just before a census? There was only one Thomas Hand in Surrey in 1841 and he was still there in 1851, but not in Croydon. Alternatively is he the Thomas Hand who had various convictions in Cambridge giving a birth of between 1791 and 1795 before being transported in 1842 to VDL? I think he probably was (particularly in the light of the age of 76 that Rosie found, which I think is too old)

A James Hand 16 shoemakers apprentice b Cambs was living in Cambridge St Andrew the Less in 1841.

Mary Ann Hand 19 b Cambs was living in Cambridge St Andrew the Less in the same house as the Ripley family in 1841. She married Joseph Ripley in 1841 (on GRO index as HARD) and in subsequent censuses gave her birthplace as Linton.

A Sarah Hand 15 b Cambs was also living in St Andrew the Less but she married Thomas Sabine in Croydon and in 1851 gave her birthplace as Haverill Suffolk, the same as Sarah wife of James so I think she was their daughter (see next sentence)

Also baptising children in Linton from 1824-37 were James & Sarah Hand. They were still in Linton in 1841 but by 1851 were living in Croydon Surrey, where they stayed. Could this James have been a brother of Thomas Hands who married Sarah Graves?

Australian records show that Thomas Graves emigrated to Australia in 1846 and he died there in 1900. His obituary shows that he had a brother James, and that he returned to England for a couple of years from 1869. Thomas and James Graves were both living in Croydon in 1871 – James can't be found in 1851 and 1861 when he was presumably in Australia.

So were Thomas and James Graves actually Thomas and James Hand, and for some reason dropped their Hand name and took their mother's maiden name of Graves?

My final flight of fancy concerns Thomas Hand jun who had one appearance in Cambridge Assizes before being transported to NSW on 27 Jun 1835 age 16, described as a butcher's boy. He got his ticket of leave in 1840 and his Certificate of Freedom in 1841, born Cambs in 1817. I reckon he could have come back to England, and changed his name to Graves in order to emigrate to Adelaide in 1846. I think James Hand living in Croydon was possibly their uncle.

If anyone can come up with a better theory I'm all ears

Aesop
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Beds:   Cople: Luke/Spencer
            Everton: Hale
            Henlow: Cooper/Watts/Sabey/Rook
            Potton:  Merrill
            Southill: Faulkner/Litchfield/Sabey/Rook
            Woburn/Husborne Crawley: Surkitt
Hunts:   Gt Gransden: Merrill/Chandler/Medlock
            Toseland: Surkitt/Hedge/Corn         
Cambs: Bourn: Bowd
            Eltisley: Medlock
            Graveley: Ford/Revell

Offline Selina

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Re: GRAVES Thomas Henry
« Reply #12 on: Thursday 10 October 13 20:04 BST (UK) »
Sounds good to me!  Very interesting.

There seems to have been early connections with Croydon:

Marriage at Linton 10 April 1809
James MESSENGER of Croydon, Surrey bac and
Marianne HAND otp sp
by licence
Witnesses: Wm HAND and Josiah BATTYLL

Selina
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk


Offline bedfordshire boy

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Re: GRAVES Thomas Henry
« Reply #13 on: Thursday 10 October 13 20:35 BST (UK) »
I'd just found that marriage too Selina, but only on the IGI so didn't have the Croydon connection, which is very intriguing. I was using it to try to find where Marianne was born, via censuses, in the hope it might lead to where Thomas Hand was born. 1861 says Cambridge but I still can't find her baptism. James was born in Linton in 1795.

James' father was William Hand, so the witness could have been him or perhaps more likely, a brother.

Many Hands make light work!

Think I'll leave the Hands until the morning. All that mental exertion has done me in!

David
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Beds:   Cople: Luke/Spencer
            Everton: Hale
            Henlow: Cooper/Watts/Sabey/Rook
            Potton:  Merrill
            Southill: Faulkner/Litchfield/Sabey/Rook
            Woburn/Husborne Crawley: Surkitt
Hunts:   Gt Gransden: Merrill/Chandler/Medlock
            Toseland: Surkitt/Hedge/Corn         
Cambs: Bourn: Bowd
            Eltisley: Medlock
            Graveley: Ford/Revell

Offline Linda2309

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Re: GRAVES Thomas Henry
« Reply #14 on: Thursday 10 October 13 21:36 BST (UK) »
Thank you all for your "investigations".  I'm sorry I haven't popped in here but I am not well at the moment - although I am reading with interest all the theories and hope we can get to the bottom of it eventually.

Offline bedfordshire boy

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Re: GRAVES Thomas Henry
« Reply #15 on: Friday 11 October 13 05:51 BST (UK) »
There seems to have been early connections with Croydon:

Marriage at Linton 10 April 1809
James MESSENGER of Croydon, Surrey bac and
Marianne HAND otp sp
by licence
Witnesses: Wm HAND and Josiah BATTYLL

Selina
You're spot on Selina! In 1851 they were living in Croydon, James born there and Mary Ann born St Ives Hunts. They baptised a child there in 1814, so it seems to be the Messengers who provide the link to Croydon. Thanks for the lead.

David
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Beds:   Cople: Luke/Spencer
            Everton: Hale
            Henlow: Cooper/Watts/Sabey/Rook
            Potton:  Merrill
            Southill: Faulkner/Litchfield/Sabey/Rook
            Woburn/Husborne Crawley: Surkitt
Hunts:   Gt Gransden: Merrill/Chandler/Medlock
            Toseland: Surkitt/Hedge/Corn         
Cambs: Bourn: Bowd
            Eltisley: Medlock
            Graveley: Ford/Revell

Offline Selina

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Re: GRAVES Thomas Henry
« Reply #16 on: Friday 11 October 13 11:00 BST (UK) »
Hi David,

What a bit of luck they survived to the 1851!

You may have this but will send anyway.

Baptisms at St. Ives All Saints

1790  April 16   Mary HAND? (question mark is in transcript)of William and Mary born 20 March

1791  April 27   William HAND of William and Mary born 25 March

1793  July 26    Thomas HAND of William and Mary born 15 February

These are the only Hand bapts during that period.

Selina


Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline bedfordshire boy

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Re: GRAVES Thomas Henry
« Reply #17 on: Friday 11 October 13 11:15 BST (UK) »
Brilliant! Thanks Selina. I think these were Mary Ann who married the Messenger, William who may have been the witness, and Thomas who married Sarah Graves.

Mary Ann survived a couple more censuses living with her daughter in Hackney, but she gave her birthplace as Cambs.

I wonder if Linton PR gives an occupation for Thomas Hand on the baptisms of his three children. Unfortunately my old Baptism Index doesn't show occupations.

We're on a roll!

David
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Beds:   Cople: Luke/Spencer
            Everton: Hale
            Henlow: Cooper/Watts/Sabey/Rook
            Potton:  Merrill
            Southill: Faulkner/Litchfield/Sabey/Rook
            Woburn/Husborne Crawley: Surkitt
Hunts:   Gt Gransden: Merrill/Chandler/Medlock
            Toseland: Surkitt/Hedge/Corn         
Cambs: Bourn: Bowd
            Eltisley: Medlock
            Graveley: Ford/Revell