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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Keith Sherwood on Tuesday 19 December 06 13:58 GMT (UK)
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Hi, Everyone,
I think this is my first post on this particular section, and I'm afraid my known facts about this CARTER family are a bit sketchy.
William and Eliza CARTER had at least 7 children, baptised (3 together in one case) between 1823 and 1830 at St Boltolph's without Aldgate, London. Certainly by 1870 when William is mentioned in a codicil in his brother Robert's will, he seems to be in Melbourn (sic), Victoria.
I cannot find them in the 1841 Census in England and thereafter, so cannot be more precise about when they may have departed to Australia.
Could some kind person point me in the correct direction to begin to search for them...?
Very best wishes,
Keith
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Hello there
and Welcome
now this is a common name so have they got middle names?
also what about parents names?
Quite of few of us have indexs that we can look up for you
regards JEnn
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Hi Keith
Would help if you post the names of the children & date of birth so we can search for you.
regards
Sid
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The mother's maiden name will help with our index searches too.
:)
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Hello Keith
Nice to see you in Australia - everyone likes to visit here :) :)
The reason for all the questions is probably twofold
- There is no census data available for Australia (well - very little - most was destroyed)
- Our BDM indexes include a little more than in England - Births contain parent names (In Victoria both given and surnames) as do deaths. Early marriages in Victoria contain birthplace. Families can often be grouped by looking at the birth and/or death places.
In addition, there are not alot of immigration indexes online pre 1840, so it may be easier to initially find your family via the BDM indexes. Having the names of the children and the parents of William and Eliza would help in tracking them down.
BDM information is also grouped by state. Given your timeframe it was very early days for Melbourne & your family may have come via South Australia or NSW.
Christmas greetings :) :)
Trish
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Jenn, Christine, Sid and Trish,
I really am very sorry that I didn't respond to your prompt replies to my post way back in December. I didn't, for whatever reason, receive any kind of e-mail in the usual way saying that one of my initiated threads had been responded to.
So here's a bit more information, though it's not a lot to be going on with...
William (b. 7th May 1797, Aldgate, London - parents Robert and Lydia CARTER) and Eliza CARTER, their marriage not yet located, had the following children baptised, according to the I.G.I
A multiple baptism on 9th April 1823 at St Botolph Aldgate of William, Robert, Joseph Tidman (might be mistranscription for Tidmarsh, the grandmother's maiden name), and Mary Ann, all baptised with the CARTER surname. Cannot tell exactly when each of these siblings were born, obviously. But a recent visit to Abney Park Cemetery has revealed a William CARTER buried with his grandparents, indicating a birth year of 1819, aged 46 - so presumably, he may never have made the trip to Australia).
There was a second multiple baptism of their children on 3rd Feb 1830:
Eliza, Robert (indicating that the first Robert may have died), Ellen, and Lydia Tidmarsh CARTER.
Of course, not all these children would have survived childhood, or joined them on the journey.
The only facts are that their last children were baptised in London in 1830 and William CARTER the father is mentioned as being in Melbourn (sic) Australia in his brother's 1869 codicil to his will.
Not much to go on, but it's all I've got so far!
Regards, keith
N.B. The other possibility is that William CARTER, b.1797, might have committed a crime and been transported, but I've never heard any family whisper to this effect
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Hi Keith
Heres a bit to start with
CARTER, Lydia Tidmarsh CM 148885 Age: 21 Marriage
Spouse: ROOPE, Lavington Age: 25
Marriage Date: 14 Mar 1846
Reg Year: 1846 Reg State: Tasmania
Ref Number: 2313
FAMILY INFORMATION
Children: 438689 ROOPE LAVINGTON GEORGE 1847
438684 ROOPE F 1848
438685 ROOPE F 1849
438683 ROOPE F 1850
438693 ROOPE M 1851
438695 ROOPE RAYMOND HAMILTON 1857
438692 ROOPE M 1860
ROOPE, Lavington CD 768423 Death
Sex: Male
Age at Death: 60
Death Date: 29 Jun 1881
Reg Year: 1881 Reg State: Tasmania
Ref Number: 3197
death
ROOPE, Charles H CD 768421 Death
Father: Lavington
Mother: Lydia
Index Year: 1886
Reg Year: 1886 Reg State: New South Wales
Ref Number: 6802
ROOPE, Alice CD 768420 Death
Sex: Female
Age at Death: 11
Death Date: 08 Jan 1860
Reg Year: 1860 Reg State: Tasmania
Ref Number: 1866
ROOPE, Julian CD 768422 Death
Father: Lavington
Mother: Lydia T
Index Year: 1882
Reg Year: 1882 Reg State: New South Wales
Ref Number: 5215
see also
http://members.iinet.net.au/~jreynold/history.html
Marriage: Frances Amy ROOPE 19 Jul 1882, St Johns Church, Newtown, Hobart, Tasmania 1 to Tetley Gant.
daughter of a well-to-do Hobart merchant, whose fine New Town residence, Wendover, was for a time the Gants' family home
Gant died on 7 February 1928 at Lower Sandy Bay. His obituarist in the Mercury described him as 'an ideal English gentleman … He had a fine personal presence, was debonair, affable and courteous in manner, liberally disposed, [and] was highly respected and esteemed by all classes'. He was survived by his daughter, his wife having died in 1926, and was buried in St John's cemetery. His estate was valued for probate at £4876.
Annie
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I couldn't find any certain evidence of them in Victoria to 1901.
Christine :)
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Anne Caroline,
Thanks SO much for that spot for this CARTER family. I was beginning to doubt that they'd actually ever gone to Australia, but certainly Lydia is one of William and Eliza CARTER's children. I'd half hoped that the (unusual) middle forename might identify at least one of them more easily...
And Christine, thank you very much for searching the 1901 for me.
Now I know that the family must presumably have travelled to Australia some time between about 1830 and 1846 - narrows it down quite a bit. I expect it might be easier now to find Lydia Tidmarsh CARTER in the immigration/records than the more common William or Eliza forename...
Very best wishes,
keith
And not forgetting to thank you for all that lovely detail on the children of the marriage, and the fascinating extra pieces of biographical detail. This all looks extremely promising...
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Hello Keith and Anne Caroline
I found the BDM info above a little difficult to follow, but a very interesting find - especially as the rest of the family seem to be hiding. I think it comes from the AVRI and probably the Tasmanian archives. This is the link for the archives
http://www.archives.tas.gov.au/ and this for the indexes
http://www.archives.tas.gov.au/nameindexes
Given the timeframe, if your William did end up in Hobart, there would be a better than 50/50 chance he was a convict. There were, however, from the archives site 17 William Carters who were sent to Tasmania ??? and age is not mentioned in the list! You could discount a few who came before 1830, but still many left. I believe it was not uncommon for wives with/without children to follow their husbands to Australia - but I doubt it was a very frequent event.
Apart from Lydia Carter (if she is yours) I can see none of the other children in the Family links data base (which is taken from the Tas BDM records to 1900). These are the same BDM records that are on the AVRI.
These are the Tasmanian records I have
Marriage 1846 Ref 2313 Lydia Tidmarsh Carter aged 21 M Lavington ROOPE Aged 25
Children - All Births
George 6 Jan 1847 Ref 2187
Female 25 May 1848 Ref 1080
Female 9 July 1849 Ref 1678
Female 17 Jul 1850 Ref 2700
Male 27 Jul 1851 Ref 907
Male 22 Dec 1860 Ref 1861/4128
Raymond Hamilton 25 Oct 1857 Ref 1858/1310
Deaths
Alice ROOPE age 11 8 Jan 1860 (presumably the lass born July 1849) ref 1866
Lydia Tidmarsh ROOPE age 40 8 Sep 1864 Ref 4689
Lavington ROOPE age 60 29 Jun 1881 ref 3197
NSW can be checked online at www.bdm.nsw.gov.au - follow the family history links
The closest I found for a death of William Carter that suits your information were 2 from Victoria
Death: William Carter Father: Robert Mother Mary Evans Age 81 Birthplace UNK Year 1878 Ref 10035
Death: William Carter Parents Unknown Birthplace Unknown Age 77 Year 1871 Ref 5814
The first has the wrong mother (but is the right age), the second is a few years out on age. Informants often got both of these items incorrect - but neither of these may be your man.
Victorian death certificates can be downloaded - they cost $17.50 (abt 7 pounds) so expensive if not the correct one!
There are a number of links to Vic immigration & other information on the Victorian Links thread at the top of the board which may be useful. Some of the indexes available are here
http://www.access.prov.vic.gov.au/public/PROVguides/PROVguide023/PROVguide023.jsp
The Tas Archives staff are very helpful. I don't know of alot of Tas immigration that is online, but the records are at the archives. If you browse the site it may tell you where to look - or if you can find nothing you can try an email to the archives.
Trish
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Trish,
This is great, lots of lovely extra info and things to ponder. As you say, the possibility that, for whatever reason, William CARTER was sent to Australia against his will is becoming a definite possibility, and one that I need to pursue. The family didn't seem to be short of a bob or two, so perhaps it wasn't something straightforward, such as petty larceny, but who knows?
keith
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It seems it will take some finding - remember that the convict possibility increases IF he went to Tasmania. Much as it used to be denied, if your ancestors came from Tas before 1850, the odds were fairly good that they were convicts. If they went direct to Victoria (& todate only one is found in Tasmania) there were no convicts there at all.
Have fun searching :)
Trish
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Trish,
So what kind of settlement was Tasmania in the 1840's...?
keith
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Hi again, Trish,
I've just been poking about on the website of the state library of Tasmania, and here's the link:
http://images.statelibrary.tas.gov.au/SubjectIndex/Default.asp?Letter=C
If you click on a William CARTER, there's a picture of a man whose dates are given as ca. 1796-1878, and he was a politician, and there's a photo of him.
Sounds like the same individual as you pointed out earlier in this thread, or am I mistaken. And do you know anything more about this particular person...?
keith
N.B. This person seems to be listed under several headings: Politicians, Merchants, Sales Personnel and Men - Tasmania History. Strange that year of birth fits, father's name fits, where born fits, but mother's name is all wrong...
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Hi Keith
The library & archives folk in Tas are very user friendly. I would find a contact us or "ask a librarian" & query them about his background - they will know much more than me & if nothing else it will cancel him as your man.
The Victorian death certificate would/should list the children of the man who died there. They are online at
http://online.justice.vic.gov.au/servlet/bdm_home but costly! Also dependent on the informant & if it is your man, we are suggesting the informant got the mother incorrect! Death certificates also usually give the length of time in each Australian state (for folks born outside Oz)
There should also be a web site for the Tas Parliament which will probably have information on him (perhaps his beginnings)
Trish
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Hi Keith
The following is what the Tas parliment says about him.
http://www.parliament.tas.gov.au/history/tasparl/carterw47.htm
I'll check probate records see if he left a will. I'll also check newspaper records of the day.
regards
Genni
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hello there
here is a link
http://www.parliament.tas.gov.au/history/tasparl/carterw47.htm
to more information about William Carter Politication, it says he died in Melbourne in 1878 so the possibility of him being your chap in even better I also noted on the State Library of Tasmania a parcel of documents on the Carter family but have no idea of knowing if it is yours or not but as Trisha says the library do a very good llook up service!
What a wonderfull lot of information you have recieved from Anne and Trisha
regards Jenn
ps now noticed that Genni had supplied the same link I hadn't checked my emails!
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hello there
this link will give you some further insight into Lavington Roope
http://members.tassie.net.au/~jreynold/history.html
happy browsing
regards jenn
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Trish,
So what kind of settlement was Tasmania in the 1840's...?
keith
I did miss this query
Tasmania was a convict settlement from early 1800s & (I could be corrected) there was not an large influx of free settlers until 1840s/50s, although there were, of course many convicts who finished their terms and stayed on as freemen. When the British Govt closed Norfolk Is as a settlement in the early 1800s, the residents were all shipped to Tasmania. Most were convicts who had completed their terms & many "forgot" their origins after arriving in Tasmania ;D . As "free settlers" they were entitled to land grants and became part of Hobart Society. Until the 1980s it was quite common for Australian families to hide their convict origins, but it then became popular to "own a convict" and it is now considered very Australian to have had ancestors among the early settlers - be they convicts or not.
My belief is that the original convict settlers of Tasmania were treated well and the Colony prospered until Gov Arthur appeared and built his ghastly penal settlement with its methods of complete isolation for prisoners and it took some time for the Colony to recover from this. I'm sure there are opposing views. Transportation to Tasmania ceased in the early 1850s.
Trish
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Trish, Jenn and Genni,
Wow! I'm beginning to get just a little excited by the prospect that this individual ticks so many of the boxes. I realise that William Carter is a name that occurs frequently, but there are many details that fit. Certainly a Lydia Tidmarsh CARTER marrying in Tasmania in the 1840's simply has to be his daughter, thus connecting him with the island. He was most definitely in Melbourn (sic) Victoria in 1869 according to his brother's will, and this man you say died there.
My William CARTER was born on 7th May 1797 and baptised 4th June 1797 at St Botolph without Aldgate, London, so that is not exactly right. (But not that far out) Father was indeed Robert, but the fly in the ointment is the informant of his death not putting down that Lydia Tidmarsh was his mother.
You've all been so industrious while I've slept this other side of the world, and if you could possibly look for his will or any newspaper reports of his death, Genni, I would be more than grateful.
Meanwhile I'll contact the Tasmanian archives/library and see whether they have more on this individual.
If he turns out to be the right person and he indeed went out to Tasmania as a criminal, got his freedom after serving his sentence, then established himself as a merchant/trader like his successful father and elder brother, that would be quite some story...
Very best wishes,
keith
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If he turns out to be the right person and he indeed went out to Tasmania as a criminal, got his freedowm after serving his sentence, then established himself as a merchant/trader like his successful father and elder brother, that would be quite some story...
Keith there is nothing as yet to suggest he was a convict as number of person went freely to Tasmania!
regard Jenn
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Jenn,
Just keeping my options open! Apparent lack of other family members - apart from his daughter Lydia - and the fact that there wasn't much going on in Tasmania in the early 18 hundreds (forgive me if my ignorance at this time lets me down) - makes me not discount the possibility. His elder brother Robert ran a very successful wholesale furniture and upholstery (later) business in London. I suppose William might have had some kind of entrepreneurial skills of his own that he might have employed in an emerging part of Australia.
I've e-mailed the Tasmanian archives, by the way!
keith
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hello there KEith
no harm in hoping but he could have come to establish a business!
What about his other children you found one son William but any of the others in England?
regards Jenn
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Jenn,
Up to now, not knowing when he might have gone to Tasmania, Australia, I had been looking for the entire family together, i.e. in the 1841 Census - no sign of them. Have not been able to find his son William so far. But I'll have another search for them individually - would be interesting to discover his daughter Lydia Tidmarsh CARTER in the 1841...
Not knowing when he went, and how many family members went with him, or whether he went on his own first and others followed him, makes it all a bit patchy at the moment.
keith
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Update,
Overnight I've received an e-mail from the Tasmania Archives saying they have stuff on Lavington Roope, and would look to see what they have on William Carter. They charge a fee of 25 dollars (what would that be in pounds sterling?).
They've asked me for my postal address and whether I give them the go-ahead. Think that sounds a fairly reasonable price, as I've been asked for up to £40 per hour by some Record Offices here.
Shall I go for it (think I really ought to...)? Money to be paid once I get whatever they find for me...
keith
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About 10 pounds
Sue
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hello there Keith
for what it's worth I got very good information from them quite quick and good value for the 25AUS DOLLARS payment was on receipt of the materials which is very trusting of them
regards jenn
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Update,
Overnight I've received an e-mail from the Tasmania Archives saying they have stuff on Lavington Roope, and would look to see what they have on William Carter. They charge a fee of 25 dollars (what would that be in pounds sterling?).
They've asked me for my postal address and whether I give them the go-ahead. Think that sounds a fairly reasonable price, as I've been asked for up to £40 per hour by some Record Offices here.
Shall I go for it (think I really ought to...)? Money to be paid once I get whatever they find for me...
keith
I was about to add what Jenn has said ;D Must be the ONLY corporate/government entity left in the world that does the work first & then asks for payment - make sure they accept credit card payment - cause any other method of international payment is expensive. Most of the Aust Archives have a fee based on the number of pages copied - some are cheaper than others, but most are very reasonable.
Trish
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Sue, Jenn and Trish,
Nuff said, I have done the deed! Waiting with bated breath to see what turns up now...
keith
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well done
might be waiting for you after the "big bash" celebrations
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Hi again, Trish et al,
Very exciting news, today through the post I received a large yellow envelope from the Tasmanian Archives, and it was stuffed full of all sorts of detail on William CARTER and his family. Not only had they photocopied relevant tracts, but they'd typed out pages of a summary of their findings. It must have taken them hours to do, yet they are only charging me 33 dollars. Quite amazing value!
William CARTER and his family sailed out to Tasmania on the ship "The Wave" - only 369 tons or so! - in 1833, with his wife, six children and three servants to establish himself as a businessman in the Hobart area. He became the first Mayor of Hobart.
There's also a fascinating tale of the elopement of his son William with the daughter of a well-known local man, and their subsequent disappearance overseas. Which entirely solves the puzzle why this individual was buried in the CARTER family grave in Abney Park, London in the 1860's, yet no other members of his generation.
Plus lots, lots more...
Worth every moment of the wait since about the end of April. Doesn't get much better than this. Thank you so much, Trish, for pointing me towards the Tasmanian Archives...
Very best wishes,
keith
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Hi Keith,
I have not been much of a contributor to this thread, but a keen watcher!
You have had a great outcome. Well done for chasing it so determinedly. I think everyone has enjoyed helping and will share you delight in the info you have acquired.
Well done to all.
Sue
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Thanks, Sue,
There was even an echo of what William's father Robert CARTER had been up to in Chigwell, Essex, where I came across a dispute over land, or access to owned land in the early 19thC. There in Tasmania his son William was also getting into trouble over disputed territory, I was able to read for the first time ever today...
keith
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Hello Keith
They do provide a wonderful service (albeit - takes a while) - I assume the initial $25 is the same for everyone so perhaps a lucky dip as to how much will be found. I'm so pleased it was successful & the $33 should be less than 15 pounds - so as you say well worth it.
I continue to be amazed at these folks travelling across the world in wooden ships away from family and civilisation - especially the women!
So pleased the information was available - and you can truthfully say they were free settlers :) :)
Trish
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Hello again, Trish,
Yes, they were certainly free settlers, must have taken a huge leap of faith to believe they could jump on such a tiny ship - the whole family - and travel to the other side of the world in search of a whole new life. And I wonder what the servants too must have made of being for weeks tossed about on the oceans like a cork
When I e-mailed them back yesterday night to thank them, they had replied this morning:..."A good first of the day message - will share this with all of us"... Meaning the praise, not the fee, of course!
But they've obviously got a good team there, and I've been so impressed...
keith
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Just a bit of a postscript to this thread - last Tuesday I went to the Guildhall Library in London to check out the exact birthdates of those 8 children baptised in two batches in 1823 and in 1830 prior to William CARTER gathering his family up and heading bravely to Tasmania in 1833.
In the 1823 entries he is described as "Pottery and Glass Seller"; then in 1830 he is referred to as "Chinaman".
Now that was why he must have decided that his destiny belonged in the direction of the South Seas! Lol, as my daughter puts on her text messages...
keith
p.s. William's wife's forenames are given as Mary Ann Eliza, by the way - she doesn't seem to be mentioned by name in any of the records so kindly provided by the Tasmanian Archives.
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Hi Keith
I hope this message gets to you and that you're still following the Carter family history. I have only recently started to delve into the family history, hence this late post.
I am a direct descendent of William Carter (b. 1797) and live in Tasmania, Australia. I have reached a bit of a dead end and would greatly appreciate any information you could provide. I have been to the Tasmanian Archives Office to do some research, but I wasn't sure where or when William's parents were born; all I knew was that William's father was named Robert.
I do hope to hear from you.
Regards
Eric