World War 1 Medal Card Question

[jds1949]

Absolutely amazing that some clerk was still using the pre-1881 codes in 1918+ how long had he been serving??? Great spot Adrian!!

Looking again at the medal card I would suggest that the 1915 Star and the War Medal were earned when he was an NCO - the Victory Medal has the same mark [a cross or X with the 4 dots] as is marked next to the rank of Captain. The BWM and '15 Star appear on the same line as the words "Conn Rang" - Connaught Rangers  - and the date 27/6/17, which was possibly the date when he was commissioned - which needs to be checked against the London Gazette.

James Joseph Nulty may well have a file still at the National Archives, but you'd have to actually visit to find it - they are not online.

Just checked and found the following entries from the London Gazette:


London Gazette

19 July 1918
Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers
Temp 2nd Lt J J Nulty from Connaught Rangers [attached] to be temp 2nd Lt with seniority 27 June 1917 and to be Adj. and acting Capt. With pay and allowances of Lt whilst so employed 10th April 1918

[So he transferred from Connaught Rangers to Inniskilling Fusiliers on that date - it was standard practice I believe to transfer a man to a different outfit if he was commissioned from the ranks - saved a lot of awkward situations]

22nd April 1919
The undermentioned temporary 2nd Lieutenants to be temporary Lieutenants:
J J Nulty, acting Captain and Adjutant 7th Battalion 27th December 1918 with precedence next below W G Eason

21st August 1919
Chevalier
Ordre de Leopold
Temporary Lieutenant [acting captain]  James Joseph Nulty 7th Service Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers

20th February 1920
Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers
Temp Lt J J Nulty relinquishes the acting rank of Capt. On ceasing to be Adj. 7th Battalion 26 November 1919

Hope that helps,

jds1949

[wavey]

Thank you! I've printed off your response and will go away and examine it in more detail. It's really helpful to be able to ask people who know what they are talking about. Many thanks again!

[jds1949]

Just one more thought that occurs to me, if you have a good library near you check to see if they hold copies of the Army List for 1918. You will need the one which lists all the officers by rank and seniority. You should find your man listed there with basic information on the date of his commission and dates of previous service in the ranks.

jds1949

[wavey]

I'll do that. Thanks!

[Tyrannosaurus]

The National Library of Scotland has its Army Lists for WW1 and WW2 online at the Internet Archive. http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=army%20list%20AND%20mediatype%3Atexts

Rex

[wavey]

Hi Rex! Thanks for the link. I've just spent a very happy 3 hours scanning the First World War books but found only one reference unfortunately. I think I'm going to have to travel to get service records as they will probably be the only thing to unravel this mystery. Thanks though again for the link as, at least, I know that I've left no stone unturned!

[forester]

Wavey,

A strange one.

With the P (for Personal) prefix in the WO 338 entry, you will only be able to apply for his service record through the MoD, which I believe you are doing anyway.

To have a Personal number he must still have been serving in the early 1920's. I think it was 1922 when the system was introduced. He maty have gone on to join the Territorials, not necessarily stayed with the Regular Army.

I would guess that the 1940 entry LG, which shows him as a Private, but still gives his personal number, is a technicality. If you go back a few pages, they are all emergency commissions and going by the proliferation of similar numbers, are probably recalled or volunteering WW1 and later officers.

 Also, interestingly, in both that and the 1941 entry, when he was cashiered, he appears to have been awarded the MC in a previous life. Is it on any of his medal index cards? It would appear to be some-when between November 1919 and November 1921, going by the WW1 LG entries.

Found it in the Edinburgh Gazette and earlier than I thought! It was cited in Issue 13349, Page 4140, 11th November 1918.

http://www.edinburgh-gazette.co.uk/issues/13349/pages/4140

Phil

[wavey]

Hi Phil!

Thanks so much for your message and the information.

Does the personal number that you mention mean that the James Joseph who served in the Inniskilling Fusiliers is the same man who served as a private in the Second World War in the Royal Sussex regiment?

Basically, we have a medal card from the First World War with both J Nulty and James Joseph written on it. It seems that the card must have belonged to a career soldier who was already serving and a sergeant in 1914. James Joseph was only 19 in 1914 whereas his father James (a career soldier!) was 48. One seems to be too young to be the owner of the card and one too old. James senior's papers seem to show that he only served at home in the First World War so couldn't have won the medals and James Joseph seems to be too young to have been the career soldier.

We are trying to come up with a scenario that fits the following facts if you can have a look and see what you think? Thanks so much.

1. James senior died in 1921 - shortly before the medals seem to have been applied for. He can't have been still serving past this, obviously.

2. James senior lived at 26 Altcar St. James Joseph had lived there but married in 1921 and we assume moved to 3 Glendower St - the other address on the card.

3. James Joseph was baptised James and the name James Joseph only appears on documentation relating to him from 1921 onwards.

4. The James Joseph we know of, then moved to England (late 1920s?)and served in the Royal Sussex Regt as far as we know.

Basically, the theories are that (a) the medals belong to James Senior and that James Joseph applied for them after his death. This is hard to reconcile with the paperwork which shows James senior as not serving abroad and his age. Or (b) the medals belong to James Joseph and, although young, he was a sergeant in 1914 already. Or (c) which is becoming a bit of a favourite - James Joseph applied for medals which belonged to neither of them on the basis of having the same name and added the name Joseph to his own name to add to the facade.

From what we know of the man in later life (which is little) it isn't impossible that James Joseph pulled a fast one but we don't know whether this would have been possible let alone likely. The medals card seems to add to the mystery rather than solve it!

The Ordre de Leopold 1918 medal that you mention also doesn't seem to appear on the card at all - or I can't find it. This again makes us think that the medals card does not actually belong to either James senior or the man who later added Joseph to his name.

I'd be really grateful if you could take a look at the card with your expertise and, given the facts above, let me know whether any of the three possibilities is correct - or something completely different. Thanks so much - I am tearing my hair out as trying to solve this with no military knowledge is impossible. We are waiting for a copy death certificate for the MOD application for his service record but are concerned that, if we request the record of James Joseph Nulty (as he was known in the 1940s and 50s to his family) we will receive a record belonging to an entirely different soldier! Still, I suppose the date of birth on the record might assist!

Thanks again!

[mmm45]

Just having another look at this!

The medals for the lad on the medal index card were issued Oct/Nov 1921.

Officers had to apply for medals and Other Ranks had them sent to last known address..The EF7 was the form used to apply for officers medals.

Theres no mention of MC on Medal Card although he was gazetted

The Medal Roll books held at Kew would give the date of enlistment for this man...You would need to visit or get a researcher to do a look up as not online.

Some Medal Index Cards are missing.

Theres No definate proof that James Senior never served overseas as only 3 pages of service history survive (although it says HS only on front page)
I think that the Rolls at Kew need checking for an enlistment date.

Still a mystery so far!