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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: dalek39 on Monday 24 October 11 03:47 BST (UK)
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I have a brainteaser.. My grandmother had two brothers..George and Leslie Nelson.. Leslie was born Adelaide SA. .married Hazel Brown 1904.. He died .29 Oct. 1950 SA.
I can't find any records for George Nelson..but I did find a Horris Nelson..who was christened at St Mary Magdelene Church Adelaide..11 Jul. 1889 (F/S)
As I can't find either sons, is Horris, George..There does not appear to be any birth record on SA BDMs.. There was mention of George and Leslie on the mothers obituary notice.. can anyone help unravell this mystery.. ::) ;D
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Hi Dalek39
What were the names of the parents of George & Leslie and could you please tell us the name of your Grandmother.
I can not find a marriage in 1904 for Hazel Brown in South australia..
Cheers Sue
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Can you tell us the names of Leslie and George's parents please.
Did Leslie marry in SA?
The Christening record of Horris Nelson - did that have parents names?
Regards,
Sashar
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This family has been well researched previously ;D Perhaps some links to all previous threads will avoid duplicating info
Marriage
NELSON Leslie 26 years Single Father James NELSON
BROWN Hazel May 21 years Father Charles Stanley BROWN
24 Jan 1925
At St Mary Magdalene Church Adelaide Ade 302/181
Cando :)
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A couple of previous threads with links to others.....
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,559992.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,503463.0.html
and there are links on the last link to previous links
Cando
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:-[Marriage was 24.1.1924...highlighted it and accidently deleted it from post.
Cando
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Thanks to all...my latest info is...Parents of george and Leslie and Horris nelson were James and Mary Nelson..Queen St,. Adelaide...I have a funeral notice of Mary Nelson..which reads.. On 25 May. at 11 Queen St.Adelaide..Mary, widow of James Nelson. loving mother of Pops (Mary Jane nelson) Rose, Nellie, Nance, Florrie, george and Leslie...George was the 2nd son of James and Mary..
My grandmother was Flora.. aka Florence..married name Donovan.
Cando..can we put this on one thread please to save confusion... :)
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Sorry if I confused everyone with this thread.. I know its all over the place..but hope to get it sorted..apologies for that... :-[ :)
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I'm not sure that much more can be done.
Clutching at straws there was a Horace George NELSON b. 21.11.1894 at Marleston to a William Henry NELSON and Elizabeth MIDDLETON.
He is the only child that I can see born to this couple but of course not delving into their background they may have migrated with children and this was the only child born here.
Did James NELSON, have a brother William Henry? Something may have happened to leave this Horace George an orphan and your James and Mary then took him into their family.
Just airing some ideas. I've had that happen several times in my family around the same era.
Sorry I can't be of more help,
Sashar
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Dear Sasha...thanks for that..I've thought of adoption..but finding this record of a Horris Nelson..born in Adelaide..christened in 1889 same place as the other children made me wonder..I have been onto SAGHS and they cant find any record of a birth for either George or Horris..maybe he was born elswhere, but christened in Adelaide.. I don't have much to go on other that a newspaper iten (Trove SA) which mentions both the brothers in their mothers death/funeral notice.. I seem to have hit that brick wall, and SA records are as hard to get as hens teeth unles you pay big time...and where do you stop, other than rob the bank of england ;D (jokiing) :)
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Depending on the year of Mary NELSON's death, you may be able to get a copy of her death certificate giving more information on her children.
If your are outside SA this link may help:-
http://gravesecrets.weebly.com/adelaide-bdm-free-transcriptions.html
or this ( a fee does apply but cheaper than purchasing original certificate):-
http://www.saghs.org.au/index.html
As I've said, it all depends on the year of death as to what info. is given on certificate:-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=368744.0
Hope that helps,
Sashar
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Thanks Sasha...have all that info on Death Certificate etc..only mentions children of Mary, as in Popsie (Mary Jane) Rose, Nellie.. Nance..Florrie..George and Les... She died on 25 May. 1930..age 82...James Nelson died 28 Jul. 1924..age 83..Both are buried at West Terrace. Adelaide.
I have contacted SAGHS, and they can't find any records either birth or death foe a George Nelson..only Leslie...though I do have a birth record on New Family Search for a Horris Nelson..parents Mary and James Nelson, christened 1899 at the same church as all the others.
I understand how difficult this thread is.. but hopeful that someone may be able to come up with something..I have tried everything else that I can..so if its a brick wall, maybe we should complete it..put it in the "too hard basket" ??? :)
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I would like to complete this thread...Dalek
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My apologies to all ..I have been "off-line" for some time, and decided to take up the Horris Nelson saga again...forgetting I had completed it some time ago...I received notification today, the thread had been moved.. I was unaware that I had to use the old thread, I was not told .,,I would now like to continue on where I left off, if some kind soul is prepared to help me...
Since my last thread..I have discovered that James and Mary Nelson had two sons. as well as five daughters....George and Leslie...Les born 1899 Adelaide SA...married at 26 to Hazel May Brown..24 Jan. St Mary Magdalene Church ..Adelaide. SA
My problem is that I can't find any mention of George Nelson. birth date or otherwise...
I did find a Horris Nelson on F/S..with a christening date 11 Jul 1889, the same date as James registered his other children..same church. etc.
but I can find no record of this Horris anywhere else...
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continued... On my last post, which was since moved by Aghadowey, It was mentioned that maybe Horris was mistaken for Florrie..my grandmother (Flora) and that my GGreatgrandfather registered all his children at the same time.... but it did state on the record that Horris was a male...
From my searching, Horris does not exist..George either....., but it was stated on Mary's (their mother) death notice she was the loving mother of Pops, (Mary Jane) Rose.(Emily Rose) Nellie, Nance (Annie) Florrie (Flora) and George and Les.....These siblings seem to be in order of birth from my records...so.. I can't obtain a birth certificate to prove George's existance without a DOB...any suggestions..please...Dalex
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Hi Dale,
I can't help you with finding George but I believe Horace may have been the son of Peter NELSON/NELSEN and Elizabeth ELDRIDGE born 8.10.1888 at Reefton Heights, Nairne Dist of SA. This is that Horace's marriage record which indicates Horace was born c1889:-
Horace James NELSEN aged 35, married 21.6.1924 at Salvation Army Citadel, Adelaide, Elizabeth Lillian HAINS aged 34.
Neither were previously married. Father of Horace: Peter NELSEN Father of Elizabeth: Henry HAINS
I realise it doesn't explain your previous find as below, but I believe information on Family Search is not from official records which may mean information is not always correct:-
.though I do have a birth record on New Family Search for a Horris Nelson..parents Mary and James Nelson, christened 1899 at the same church as all the others.
It may also help you to search:-
http://www.genealogysa.org.au/resources/online-databases.html
Regards,
Sashar
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Thanks Sasha..you are a gem...I will get onto that site and see what I can find...I believe Horris was an error, but..have to check it out..This family were full of surprises...many thanks.. Dale.
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Hi Dale
I noticed from the marriage record that Leslie was aged 26 when he married in 1925 so born c1899. Now Mary was then aged 51, and though not impossible to still have children, it was a fair gap between Flora and the two youngest 'sons'.
Have you considered the fact that both George and Leslie may have been illegitimate children of either the elder daughters of James and Mary? Often such children were brought up by grandparents and believed them to be their actual parents, and that may explain why the two boys were not registered as children of James and Mary.
Essie
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Essie...WOW...never thought of that...interesting...I did notice that James registered most of his children on 11 Jul 1889..so did that mean when the boys were born he just didn't bother to register them...or as someone mentioned, another theory..is they may have been the children of his brother..would love to know if he had a brother here in Aust.....I gather he would have back in Ireland..can't even get records from there due to the civil war...seems this family stays a mystery..unless I can dig up (pardon the pun) some concrete evidence....
The six year gap between Flora and Henry is a mystery..what happened there..sounds like an Agatha Christy, eh?
I even tried the Adelaide papers, Trove.., to see if there was anything there..found that they lived at 11 Queen St.Adelaide..infact that is the address where James and Mary died ...There is absolutely no one left in my family to ask...I am it... ;D I will keep hoping that something may come up..many thanks for you assistance...Dale.
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Hi,
The gap between births may have been caused by miscarriages or still births.
The possibilty that Horis/Horace was an illegitimate grandchild or a fostered child of another family (related or not) should also be considered.
My fathers Aunty Annie the eldest of his father's siblings tunred out to be an unrelated fostered child. Took me 5 years to find her birth, right year, wrong surname, followed through with her marriage (twice) and death certificates eventually when I had gathered it all my uncle (aged 85) said everyone knew Aunty Annie was adopted ::)
In another of the families I was researching there was a 5 year gap between their marriage and the birth of the first of 12 children!!!
It seems he had broken the laws and been gaoled for 5 years!!!!!
good luck
Robyn
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Dear Robyn Thank you for your suggestions...worth looking at.. and with me I am the only older generation of this family left, so no one to ask...
You are so right ..re James Nelson..He was a convict, transported to Perth WA for 10 yrs ,,While stationed in Malta abt 1858/9 he shot at his supierior officer... he was 18 at the time.. (see James Nelson thread) so you can understand why, to me, this family is worth investigating with that sort of history...so much "karma" and having two sons , who I can't find, makes it rather frustrating...
It did state on Mary Nelsons (mother)death notice she was the mother of George and Les....but thats not proof I know...
I was informed yesterday, by SA records dept..that there are no records on the SA BDM for either George Nelson or Leslie Nelson..so this may mean they were born elsewhere...England??.or adopted.or whatever....
and without DOB etc makes this quite difficult..but,.. I know I am not alone there...thank you for your help....much appreciated...Dale.
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Have you looked as suggested earlier to see if the two boys were the Illegitimate sons of of Pops, (Mary Jane) Rose.(Emily Rose) Nellie, Nance (Annie) Florrie (Flora).
???
Their names may not be Nelson however. But their mothers name would show, possibly not the fathers.
Neil
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HI
http://www.genealogysa.org.au/?option=com_search&ref=search&id=2&s=bmVsc29u&g=aA==&c=&y=&r=MA==
has an
1955 death for a Horace James Nelson
1969 death for a Horace George Nelson.
might be worth digging dee p an dpurchasing these!!
Robyn
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Neil...Yes I thought of that..but where do I start..any suggestions...Dale
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I would definitely be getting a copy of the Horace George Nelson first and see if it has any direct connection. That's a really good pickup Robyn ;D
Neil
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Yes I agree...will do that.. been onto Trove..Adelaide..SA looking for any Nelson family notice.. have to give eyes a rest now..crosseyed....funny thing..I found Mary Nelson death notice, but nothing for James Nelson..there could be a hint there as to his children.. He died 28 Jul 1924..Queen St. Adelaide..buried at WTC...strange I can't find any notice for him...he died before Mary, who died at the same address..buried together..so not likely to be seperated... I know certificates are the way to go, but there has to be limits to the pocket..will do if no other way...Dale.
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Dale
http://www.centennialpark.org/
Horace George Nelson aged 75 in 1969 last abode Torrens Park
Horace Nelson aged 70 in 1961 last abode in BC Canada
creamtion record detailss also given.
http://www.aca.sa.gov.au/OurCemeteries.aspx
WTC also has intermentsf for Ellen and Mary Jane Nelson in the same grave ages seem appropriate.
It might be worth contacting teh cemetry to see what information they are allowed to let you have.
Robyn
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Robyn...I have been in touch with WTC and have photo's of the graves, and the info that Mary Jane and Ellen (daughters) are buried with the parents... so thanks for your thought there...
I am coming to the conclusion that George and Leslie Nelson are either adopted or Illigitimate children, as Mary (mother) would have been 51 at the time of their "supposed" births...not impossible ..but doubtful...
I also looked at that site you gave me on SA BDM's online..and there are quite a few George Nelsons born around the time, so, makes it hard to check all with certificates of proof... though I have sent off for one, as advised...waiting for that reply.....
I have found through Ancestry, James Nelsons greatgrandaughter, like me, the daughter of my grans brother, Leslie...who I have been in contact, who..lives not far from me...wonder of wonders..and she does not know anything of this family unfortunately, and is very interested to find out.
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continued.....I am very sorry..to all..that this thread has been such a long and difficult one...and at times all over the place...but..I am not an expert at genealogy ;D and with soooo much info its not hard to get confused..
I think I will have to be grateful for what I have achieved, but..there is one other source..and thats to find James Nelson's enlistment records...which I have already looked into ..no feedback as yet..now ..what I want to know, without upsetting anybody, do I go onto the Military thread..or do I stay with this one...or do I just fade away ;D ;)Dale x
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Dale
What conflict are you looking at for JAmes war service and what branch?
http://www.awm.gov.au/research/people/nominal_rolls/pre_first_world_war/person.asp?p=473489
is a good starting point.
A James Nelson severd in the navy in China 1900-1901
Horace George Nelson of Adelaide served in WW1 mother Elizabeth so not your man.
http://www.naa.gov.au/index.aspx
and you can access for free digitial copies of the service records.
Robyn
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I have it he served in Malta 1858 /9 and was court martialed 29/7/1859. 10yrs..transportation to Perth WA....I have his convict papers, which does not state much info before his arrival in Australia....I am trying to trace his army records, plus Irish family, for family research..know this is a hard task, as all his queries have been..but live in hope... ::)
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Dale
have you looked at these on line records re the British regiments in India
http://www.new.fibis.org/
ther may be nothing relevant to you but wowrth looking at.
Robyn
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Thanks for that..nothing there of interest, but have contacted other sources, will get back when I hear...Dale x
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Can someone help me find a death notice for James Nelson...born 1840-1 Belfast......died Adelaide SA. died 28th Jul. 1924... I've looked on trove, found his wife Mary's..but no luck with James...thanks. :)
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Hi Dale,
From Genealogy SA
http://www.genealogysa.org.au/?option=com_search&ref=search&id=2&s=bmVsc29u&g=amFtZXM=&c=1&y=&r=MA==
1924 Reg 472/30 NELSON James District Adelaide.
Someone with the SA death cd covering 1924 may be able to help you further.
Regards,
Sashar
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James' funeral notice, but there is no death death notice in "The Register" 28/29/30 July.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/59025260?searchTerm=NELSON&searchLimits=l-decade=192|||l-year=1924|||l-category=Family+Notices|||l-month=07|||l-title=89
Debra :)
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Thank you sooooo much Debra..much appreciated...strange that there is no metion of family...he is buried at West Terrace Cemetery. Adelaide with his wife Mary... buried together in same grave...
I know this has been a long thread, and I am sorry if I have confused some.. with so many dates and names and places, its not hard.... He had a very interesting history, left not much information to go on.. I feel we have achieved a lot, so thanks to all who helped..at least you know me by now.. ;D I have closed this thread before ..so may leave it open awhile longer..sorry to do that to you all. Dalek.x
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Dear all...I have just found that Horris Nelson was a transcription error, should have read Florris, then when document was checked it was Flora, who was my grandmother..thanks to the South Australian BDM ...All I need to do now is find George Nelson...not a brick wall..a concrete one .... ::)