Marriage of John PITCHER and Margaret?, 1860s

[judb]

I'm looking for the marriage of John PITCHER b 1840, Carlton Colville.  John was born and brought up in Carlton Colville, moving to Lowestoft probably after his marriage.  His first child Isabella Martha PITCHER was born 1864 at Carlton Colville so his marriage would probably have been 1863/64. 1861 census has him still at home in Carlton Colville and by 1871 he is in Lowestoft, where he lived until his death in 1921.

All census entries from 1871 give his wife as Margaret and her birthplace as Scotland abt 1840, but no other useful information as to her origins.

John worked on ships as a stoker and engine driver.

I don't know if John and Margaret were married in Scotland or Suffolk or ??

Any help would be appreciated.

Judith

[BumbleB]

The only marriage entry I can find on FreeBMD between January 1860 and December 1865, for a John Pitcher with Margaret ? on the same page -

September quarter 1863 - Bethnal Green 1c  page 588 - John Pitcher and Margaret Cochrane

[BumbleB]

13 September 1863 - St Bartholomew, Bethnal Green

John Pitcher aged 22, a bachelor, Railway Guard of 27 Tent Street.  Father - James Pitcher, Excavator
Margaret Cochrane aged 24, a spinster of 27 Tent Street.  Father - John Cohrane, Gamekeeper

[judb]

Thanks BumbleB.

Oh my, I don't know if this is the right couple.

Some parts fit - my John's father was named James PITCHER.  James was born, lived and died in Carlton Colville; all census entries give his occupation as 'labourer' except for one which is 'coal whipper' (I believe this is a person who unloaded coal from ships)  so the occupation of 'excavator' is not quite right although it could be the kind of work he did as a labourer.

John PITCHER's occupation in 1861 was "Clerk to the Harbour Master" and from 1871 he was a 'stoker', apparently on ships, so I am not sure how that fits with the occupation at marriage of 'railway guard' - not impossible though.

 

I think I'll need to order the birth certificate for the first child which should give Margaret's maiden name - wouldn't it?

My other thought was that he may have met Margaret on a voyage so perhaps they married in Scotland.

Many thanks for looking anyway.  Judith

[annes]

Hi Judith - don't order the cert just yet.  I'll more than likely visit the records office this week where the Carlton Colville registers are transcribed and indexed.  I'll have a look for you and see if I can find something to help.

Anne

[judb]

Thanks, Anne, that would be great.  Perhaps there may be a baptism for the first child - Isabella Martha PITCHER, b Carlton Colville Jun qr 1864 - which may show her mother's name.

The next child that I have (Margaret) is not born until 1870 and quickly followed by another 4 children so a gap of 6 years makes it seem possible that perhaps Isabella is a child of an earlier marriage and that this Margaret from Scotland may be a second wife, and mother of the younger 5 children, one of whom is the ancestor I'm following.  All of the later children were born in Lowestoft.  Of course, with John working on ships perhaps that explains the gap!

Hmmm - adding a bit more - I have a child James Alexander PITCHER b 1871, who is seen in later censuses.  However there is also a James Alexander PITCHER died Jul qr, 1869 aged 2 (Mutford registration).  As I got this from FreeBMD I have no info on the parents of this James Alexander PITCHER.

Given the Scottish traditional form of naming I wonder if Margaret's father may have been Alexander - pure speculation, of course. 

Judith

[annes]

Hi Judith, I've checked the Carlton Colville and Lowestoft St Margaret's transcripts (and also the register to double check one of the entries) but have failed to find Margaret's maiden name.

Taken from Carlton Colville parish register.

John s/o James and Martha Pitcher baptised 6th April 1842.
Under this entry in the transcript it says James is 24 yrs (?) although James and Martha are baptising other children around this time.  I checked the fiche but couldn't enlarge the image enough to accurately read the entry - could it be 24m making him 24 months at time of baptism do you think??

Taken from Lowestoft St Margaret's parish register.

Mary Jane d/o John and Margaret Pitcher bap 5 Aug 1866 (John = stoker)
Isabella Martha d/o John and Margaret Pitcher bap 5 Aug 1866 (John = stoker)
John Alexander s/o John and Margaret Pitcher bap 2 Jun 1867 (John = fireman)
Margaret d/o John and Margaret Pitcher bap 2 Jan 1870 (John = fisherman - I suspect this might be mistranscribed as all other entries say fireman)
James Alexander s/o John and Margaret Pitcher bap 3 Dec 1871 (John = fireman)
Jessie d/o John and Margaret Pitcher bn 15 Oct 1873 bap 7 Dec 1873 (John = fireman)
Mary bn 22 Apr 1876 bap 4 Jun 1876 (John = stoker)
Emma Jane bap 4 Aug 1878 (John = fireman)

Mary Jane Pitcher infant buried 12 April 1867
Emma Jane Pitcher infant buried 22nd Aug 1868
James Alexander Pitcher buried 30 Sept 1869 age 2
(I double checked this entry as it appears he dies before he's born (?) in case it should have read John Alexander who was born in 1867 but it does say James in the register)

I couldn't see a marriage for John and Margaret at either Carlton Colville or St Margaret's.

[judb]

Hello Anne

Thank you so much for those look-ups which fit nicely with what I already have, and have given me some new info.

John PITCHER, s/o James and Martha was born 1840 - date taken from consistent ages given in censuses, also FreeBMD - Mar qr, 1840 - John Pitcher, reg Mutford &c, Vol 13, p 462.  So it would seem that your guess is right and the 24 refers to 24 months.

As to the child who seems to have died before he was born, there is this FreeBMD index entry:
James Alexander PITCHER
Registration: 1867, Apr-May-Jun, Mutford,  Vol 4a, p726

And a matching death which fits the burial:
James Alexander PITCHERS, age 2,
Registration: 1869, Jul-Aug-Sep, Mutford, Vol 4a,  p436

This unfortunate child seems to have mistranscriptions all over the place - birth reg and burial record have him as James Alexander PITCHER, baptism record has his Christian name as John, his death reg has his surname as PITCHERS.  Seems to me that these records are all for the same child.

I think you're right about the occupation being 'fireman' which he also gives on one census 'fireman on ships'.

Perhaps the marriage is the one found by BumbleB which doesn't quite sit 'right' to me but it's certainly a possibilty.

It's age since I ordered a UK birth certificate - if I order one of the children's birth certificates will it give the mother's place of birth and/or maiden name?  I realise she may still just put 'Scotland'.  I wonder if she was a herring girl?  I think she may remain behind the brick wall. 

Once again, many thanks; I really appreciate the time you've spent.

Cheers, Judith

[BumbleB]

A child's birth certificate will give you the mother's maiden name, but it will not give you a place of birth for her.  The column headings are:

When and where born
Name (if any)
Sex
Name and Surname of father
Name, surname and maiden surname of mother
Occupation of father
Signature, description and residence of Informant
When registered
Signature of Registrar
Name entered after registration