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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Dumfriesshire => Topic started by: janeli_1 on Monday 18 October 10 20:00 BST (UK)
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My 2X great grandparents John Kerr (1801-1877) and Mary Gowanlock (1801-1879) were both born in Hoddam parish ……. John Lochmaben and Mary St. Mungo and both died at Red Hall Wigton, Cumberland. They married 1827 St Mungo. 1841 census has the family living Grahamshall, Hoddam Parish, Dumfriesshire with children: William(1827), Jannet(1832), Mary(1836), Phillis(1838), James(1840). Another daughter, Phillis had died 1836 and another son, John was born later in 1846.
John’s father William (1780-1844) married Phillis Bell (1777-1842). They are in 1841 census in St Mungo Dumfriesshire. With them are Archibald Kerr (b 1815) and William Kerr (b1835). Perhaps I have the wrong census record as I don’t know who either of the last 2 are. I have William’s (1780-1844) father as another William. I know nothing of John’s mother Phillis Bell’s family.
I have Mary Gowanlock’s father as James but know nothing about him.
I have lots of Canadian information as at least 3 of Jon and Mary’s children immigrated here.
Thanks for any input.
Jan
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john/mary had 2 phyllis.s the first one is 1830 2nd 1837 the first one is down as philip daughter think marys mother may also be phyllis csc
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I have both Philis'. John's mother was Phillis Bell. If Mary was born 15 Nov. 1800 Sorrysyke, St. Mungo, her parents were James Gowanlock and Philis Carruthers, according to IGI. There are some Canadian relatives that believe she may be christened 26 Apr 1801, Lochmaben with parents Walter Gowanlock and Tinnie Bettie. IGI has a 3rd possibility christening 5 Dec 1800 Lochmaben and parents Walter Gowanlock and Margaret Jardine. Do you have her attached to John Kerr with the St Mungo birth?
Jan
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janeli, Scotland's People has both christenings listed as separate entitities so I think you have to assume there were at least two Mary Gowanlocks born around the same time, father's name Walter, both christened in Lochmaben, but no record for any baptism in St Mungo, or of any baptism in Scotland between 1799 and 1805 for a Mary Gowanlock with a father called James. Not all pre-registration baptisms are recorded so that doesn't mean that Mary, born in St Mungo to James and Phillis, doesn't exist, just that there's no record of her baptism.
I know in my own family I have my great grandmother and her first cousin born within 2 months of each other in the same place, both christened Margaret after their grandmother, but then their fathers were brothers and had different names so we eventually disentangled them. For you it's more complicated as two of the 3 possible fathers are Walter Gowanlock, possibly cousins, who knows?, so there'll be more detective work needed to divide them up.
The basic SP search brings you:
5 December 1800. Mary Gowanlock, daughter of Walter Gowanlock and Margaret Jardine at Lochmaben. GRO reference to view the whole thing 840/00 0010 0116
26 April 1801. Mary Gowanlock, daughter of Walter Gowanlock and Tinnie Bettie, also in Lochmaben. Reference for that is 840/00 0010 0118
These confirm the details you've found on the Canadian tree, and on IGI, but if you are absolutely sure that your Mary was born in St Mungo to a James and Phillis, then it doesn't look as if either of them relate to her.
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This was still bugging me, I felt I'd missed something then realised I had searched the name as 'Exact' instead of 'Traditional soundex' Going back and searching 1799-1806 again I found these 3 baptisms, all in St Mungos:
19 Sept 1799. Janet, daughter of James Gowenlock GROS ref 847/00 0010 0131
15 Nov 1801. Mary, daughter of James Gownlock. GROS ref 847/00 0010 133
28 May 1804. Philis, daughter of James Gownlock. GROS ref 847/00 0010 0135
There may have been more baptisms in the family pre-1799 or after 1806. I suggest you go into Scotlands People and have a look for yourself, it's not an expensive subscription site - you only buy credits for searches and for whatever original records you choose to view.
You say you had a birth date for 'your' Mary of 15 November 1800. That is not likely to be a birth date, whether your Mary or not, as that is given as the date of her baptism. It is quite rare to get birth dates recorded, but the date of baptism, taken with ages declared in later records, usually gives you a clue. (unless like some of mine they did baptism job lots for several children aged babyhood to 10 altogether, in which case it doesn't help at all) Still with 3 baptism spread across those few years it would seem to indicate that James had his daughters baptised when babies.
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Wow! Thanks so very much! I have connected with someone in Dumfriesshire who found a record of marriage for John Kerr and Mary Gowanlock. Mary's father is James for sure.
I will look through what you have sent!
THANK YOU!
Jan
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I thought I could do a personal reply but can't find out how!!
I have researched lots on my Dad's family in England and learned that where people say they are born is not necessarily where they are registered. You have a clearer picture of the geography there.
John Kerr and Mary Gowanlock were living at Grahamshall in the Parish of Hoddam, 1841 census. IGI of Wm Kerr and Philis shows Wm born Lochmaben 1801. Both Wm and Mary were buried in St Mungo church yard although they had moved to Cumberland by then.
I am not at all sure about Mary's mother's first name. There is a James and Phillis with lots of children but no child named Mary. I think since John and Mary were married in St Mungo that the baptism 15 Nov 1801 you found is quite likely correct and confirms the 1801 date I originally had.
I have a subscription to Scotlandspeople but have been cautious as credits go quickly. You have given me enough to make it worth a look. If this is my Mary then are Janet and Philis siblings? If it is the same James as father that would be the case. With a daughter Philis it is still possible James' wife was Philis ......... but so far no proof.
Maggie, I am so very grateful for you help and very thorough research
Jan
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There is a possibility there may have been 2 James Gownlock / Gowanlock / Gowenlocks in the area but it's by no means certain.
When I looked at James and Phillis in the 1841 census in St Mungo they are both listed as 62, born around 1779. That doesn't rule them out as being the parents of the first baptism shown, but even allowing for rounding the ages they were probably around 20.
If you compare that with a list of baptisms they show Phillis Carruthers on some and not on others.
1799 Janet - only James Gowenlock mentioned
1801 Mary - only James Gownlock mentioned
1804 Philis - only James Gownlock mentioned, but her name is Philis, so could she be named for her mother?
1807 Andrew - only James Gownlock mentioned.
1809 James - only James Gownlock mentioned
1812 - John, the first of the children shown in the 1841 census. Both parents are listed - James Gowenlock and Philis Carruthers
1815 - Jean, again both parents James / Phillis listed
1820 - William, and 1823, Walter, both James and Philis are listed on both.
In the 1851 census James and Philis are still going strong at 77, with John and Walter still at home, together with Walter's wife (Helena) and children. In 1861 James is still there, Philis presumably having died, and both John and William are at home at the ages of 48 and 38 respectively.
Two possibilities - either this is one huge family, with births spread across a 25 year period, which is perfectly possible, or you have two separate local families, one with possible births (including Mary) from 1799 to around 1809, and the John/Philis family starting with John in 1812. That second possibility is given some weight from the fact that in 1851 and 1861 John is still at home, presumably the eldest son and heir - but you can't be absolutely sure. It could be just that all the elder children had left home before the first census in 1841.
One way I think you can sort it out, with a bit of luck, for once and for all is to go back in SP and search 'Wills and Testaments'. I just did and the Will of James Gowanlock, Farmer of Broom, St Mungo, was registered at Dumfries Sherrif Court on 27.08.1864. It will cost you £5 to see / download the document but hopefully it will answer your questions. If James was well enough off to have his Will registered in 1864 he should have detailed to whom he left his farm at the very least - if the eldest son is John, then you have to assume 2 different families and the births 1799 -1809 weren't to him and Philis. The GROs reference is SC15/41/12.
If you are really lucky he may have listed all his children in bequests. There aren't a lot of Wills from around that time, but those that are are often very detailed. Good luck
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What fun I have been having! It is amazing how one small piece of information can open up so much.
First someone helped me prove that Mary Gowanlock's father was James and not Walter as it is clearly on marriage info. Then, a suggestion to check into James Gowanlock's will proved that I had the right James to be Mary's father. It seems that the first three children were girls and maybe birth registration wasn't too important. 1841 census of course doesn't list children who married and left home. The will clearly states that James was married to Phillis Carruthers, the children on 1841 census are listed plus married daughters including Mary Gowanlock married to John Kerr living at Grahamshall! Bingo! John and Mary left for England a few months after the will was written so I got really lucky!!
To each of you has helped .......... a big THANK YOU!
Jan
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Maggie, I was reading over some old postings. When you first helped me, I was brand new to scotlandspeople. I just now clued in to the difference between 'exact' and 'soundex". Am finding much more!
THANKS!!
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Hi again,
I spend considerable time on 4 different trees and each of them has many branches. I have returned to the Kerr/Gowanlock/Carruthers families.
Finding the will of James Gowanlock found me his spouse, his children and their spouses. I am still learning lots about researching. John Kerr's record on scotlandspeople says
John son to William Kerr and Phillie Bell in Todhill=muir was born the 10th day June and baptized the 14th of same month
The part where it says Todhill=muir is my interpretation of the handwriting. He was born in Lochmaben. I know the family was at Grahamshall in St Mungo and I understand it was common to name the houses (actually William named his house in Canada as did his son, my grandfather.
I tried Google and actually find Grahamshall but no Todhill joined to Muir. Any body have any help for me?
Thanks
Jan
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Todhillmuir is a farm in Lochmaben parish, still very much there today and will be marked on most maps
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Thank you. I just figured out from a will I was reading that when a word is split (end of line) they used and = where we use a hyphen.
Thanks for your help.!
Jan
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I appreciate all the help I have had on this thread and others!
new question:
I am reading a very faded will written Broadmeadow, Dumfiresshire 1843. I think Broadmeadow must be the name of the farm. Family seems to be in mainly 2 parishes (so far) Lochamaben and St Mungo. In the will one son is in .......holm. I can not make out initial letter but the rest looks like innalholm, but I am not sure of anything but the holm part. A daughter live in what looks like Shellyholm or Shelbyholm. I have tried googling without success so far.
Hoping someone can help!
Jan
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I am hoping someone may connect. More info than previous note.
My gg grandfather John Kerr was born 11 June 1801 in Todhillmuir, Lochmaben, Dumfriesshire as were the next 6 siblings. The last, Thomas was born 1817 St Mungo. John’s parents were William Kerr and Phillis Bell.
Wm Kerr and Phillie Bell married 20 Dec 1799 in Lochmaben. I have William's very faded will so know he died Broadmeadow, Hoddam but much is difficult to read. He may have been born Pleacairn Dalton May 5 1780 to John Kerr and Margaret Esbie but as yet I can find no proof and no father's will that would verify. He may also have been born 1875 Lochmaben. At the time of 1841 census, William and Phillis are living at Bankside Yett, St Mungo along with their son Archibald all of which matches perfectly. There is a 6 year old William Kerr in the house. Likely grandson to Wm and Phillis and possible son to Archibald.
This does not correspond to 1844 death of William at Broadmeadow so did they move suddenly? Wm’s sons Thomas and William are living in England July 1843. Thomas died in Cumberland, England 1881. One daughter, Janet living 1843, with husband something like John Hood in something holme. Archibald was in something like _innalholme. So far no indication why he is no longer at home of 1841. Archibald Kerr is not as common as some. He may have married Mary Grierson in Saquhar in July 1835. That would make it possible for Wm abt 1835 (1841 census) to be his son. Perhaps remarried to gain mother for Wm? Perhaps his wife was just away in 1841.
I would love to know who are the parents of Wm abt 1875-1844, and Phillis Bell abt 1781-1842. Both born and died in Dumfriesshire.
Thanks,
Jan
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Janeli_1 who did Thomas marry?
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Hi,
I don't think Thomas ever married but I am not sure. I have his birth/baptism record : Oct 1 and 12, 1817 in St Mungo. He died Oct 12, 1881 in Wigton, Cumbria and was buried Oct 15, 1881 in St Mungo church yard. His nephew wrote the following
12th October, 1881
Sir,
Thomas Kerr, my Uncle, Died here this Morning, and his remains are to be interred in St. Mungo's Church Yard, on Saturday, the 15th current.
The favour of your company at Ecclefechan Station to meet the Train, which will stop there by arrangement at 10.5 o'clock a.m. will oblige.
Sir,
Your obedient servant.
JOHN KERR
I think he may have lived at Redhall with his nephew John who took over the farm. That is a guess.
So far no luck finding a spouse for Thomas nor do I have him in a census record. I have census for many of the family from 1841 right through to 1901. I know he was in England in 1843 and other than that have nothing between baptism and death. His father's will simply mentions he was in England. I may yet find a probate for him.
Did you find something?
Jan
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I'm glad you asked the question as new stuff is coming on ancestry all of the time. I decided to have another look and found probate. Thomas died at Redhall and executors are 2 nephews. One John Kerr who ran the farm. The other is John Hayward. If the term nephew is used correctly I think Thomas must have been married. Thomas had only one sister who lived to adulthood and I don't think Hayward was her husband. I will see if there is a Kerr/Hayward marriage.
Thanks for the prodding!
Jan
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Thanks Jan - the connection I met on ancestry has the same parents for your Thomas. However been (our) Thomas was born 1817 either Ireland or Greenock - 1851 and 1861 census differ and my Thomas died before the 1881 census - my connection has thomas having died Oct 1881 and in cumbria.
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Thanks for your help Mary, perhaps you and I are distantly related but doubtful we can trace back far enough. It is amazing how often I have found a connection through Roots Chat! My husband and I both have ancestry in UK so I do have lots of fun making connections!
Thanks to you and all who so willingly share their time!
Jan
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Jan I don't think my Thomas kerr's parents are wm kerr/phillis bell - to prove this I would need to locate a death cert for thomas.
Also Thomas has stated on the 1851 and 1861 census he was born Greenock and on the other census born Ireland - my Thomas died prior to the 1881 census - to date I have been unable to locate Thomas or his wife/family on the 1871 census
Mary
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Thanks, Mary. I have Thomas' birth record and the personal note from his nephew at the time of his death. Also probate. I guess we have different Thomas' but it was worth a try. good luck in your research.
Jan