Catherine Veitch, Teacher in Ballyconnell 1827 married G.A.[de]Winter

[IrishAndOtherOfOZ]

My Great Great Grandmother Catherine Veitch married G.A. (George Augustus) [de] Winter. Both were teachers in parochial schools in 1827. Catherine was at Ballyconnell (sponsored by C.of I. Rev. Joseph Story of Craneghan, Ballyconnell); George was at Fenagh in Leitrim (sponsored by C. of I. Rev. J.W. Moore of Fenagh). After they married (place and date unknown, but by 1831 apparently), they appear to have lived in the area round Ballyconnell and Killeshandra, as a certain case regarding a Roman Catholic priest turned Methodist led to George writing an affidavit in support of C. of I. Rev. J. C. Martin of Killeshandra's plea on behalf of the RC-turned-Methodist priest who had been accused of proselytising and had been seized by the Magistrate.
Catherine and George had their first children born in Cavan. Their oldest son was John De Winter; daughter Elizabeth Catherine was born in Cavan abt. 1832ish?; daughter Rebecca ditto, abt 1834ish?. By 1840 Catherine and George had moved on to Grange, nr. Kilmore, Armagh.
Questions I would like help with: 1. Who would have been Catherine's parents?
2. Where did George and Catherine marry, and when?
3. Who were George's parents?
4. When and where were each born?
I have spent a lot of time researching this family on the Net (my only means of doing so) and these questions I have been unable to find the answers to.
Still in hope.....

[hallmark]

Rector of Drumully in 1758. William Veech/Veitch, ( V.B.), Lie. 28 April, 1760 was the son of John Veitch, of Gartinardress, Killeshandra, his mother was Elizabeth Semple, [sister of John Semple, of Derryskert, Co. Cavan], educated by Mr. Grattan, entered Trinity College Dublin on July 14, 1739, aged 17, B.A. 1744.

His Will is dated 3 July, 1783, proved as of "Rev. W. Veitch, of Newtownbutler," on 20th Dec., 1788, mentions his nephews John and William Ingham....so possibly married Newtownbutler or Drumully??

I wonder if Rev Veitch had children, not sure where you could find out, in that he could be her g/father!!

These Veitches connect with the Swanzys of Belturbet and might be mentioned in their book!!

[hallmark]

Well thanks to volunteers taking photographs of gravestones and contributing them FREE for the benefit of others you now can get a photo of her gravestone with death date so you can apply for her death certificate which should get her father's name and his!!

A big thanks must go to Joyce for submitting them!!

It is the last picture here...  http://www.igp-web.com/igparchives/ire/wicklow/photos/tombstones/wicklow-delgany-2/index.html

An example of how people can contribute to the benefit of all.


In | Loving Memory of | GEORGE AUGUSTUS de WINTER | of Delgany | Late of
Grange, Co. Armagh | died 29th of June 1885 | also | CATHERINE | his beloved
wife | died 21st of January 1880 | and | ROBERT WILLIAM NASSAU | their youngest
son | died 1st August 1885 | Be ye also ready | They rest from their labours.

[IrishAndOtherOfOZ]

Well, I started to reply and the wind from a storm over here cut the electricity off, so here goes again:
Thank you Hallmark (Dave) for the 2 suggestions. The first is of curious interest, because if Catherine had a Clergyman grandfather it would add to the numerous ones my brother counted in our tree already! It sounds like a possibility, and it is worth my sleuthing more about. Regarding the second comment and information you posted, Joyce tipped me off about it because she and I have been in contact about this family, and she very obligingly visited the area of the grave, photographed it and put the info up on IGP. She is a helpful lady. All of them placing the info on IGP are doing us all a great service, as you say.
I do have copies of the death certificates of George and Catherine. They don't mention, however, the parents of either of them. This is why I hoped someone might be able to help with clues re the marriage, because marriage certificates usually mention at least the fathers.
I am aware that baptismal records do, too. So if anyone has clues on e.g. Catherine's baptism it would be helpful.
Meanwhile, I shall continue sleuthing re e.g. the info you gave.
What does (V.B.) mean in the text of what you wrote?

[hallmark]

"the wind from a storm..." are you sure??? LOL. Maybe you are getting too near....

V. B. would be Visitation Book..which one I don't know! Possibly Leslie's... Pity the Death Certs don't give parent(s)! So, who was the informant? Was there a Will?

http://www.fenagh.com/ might be worth contacting to see if they have anything, they are quite active in history stuff...anything on George, etc...??

One thing might be worth checking and that is....Where did they train to become teachers? One of mine trained at King's College in Dublin, I found her record on line...

 http://www.rootschat.com/links/0nfw/  type of thing!! Can college records be found? Just a thought!

[IrishAndOtherOfOZ]

Thanks Dave.
The informant in Catherine's case (d. 1880) was her husband, George De W..
The informant in George's case (d. 1885) was daughter Elizabeth Catherine. She was always close with her parents, as was Rebecca another daughter who was my GGrandmother. We have nothing from anything they wrote or kept which indicates who George and Catherine's parents, other ancestors,  or siblings were.
There was a Will for George, and it was proved by Elizabeth, but I don't know its contents, and if it had mentioned parents of either George or Catherine my brother would have known and told me, as he has helped me with everything he can.   Back in 2004 he was researching the family in depth, and has never come upon anything in that vein.
George and Catherine both trained with the Society for Promoting the Education of the Poor in Ireland (otherwise known as The Kildare Place Society). From the publications of the Society's records (the couple of years' worth I found on the Net), C. was already teaching in 1826 an G. began teaching in 1827 aged 18 (the minimum allowable age). This was a new and innovative movement, and the reason they were teaching in those small parochial schools. (The Model Schools where the training occurred in Dublin, though originally catering for both R.C. and C. of I. schools, evolved eventually into the C. of I.'s T.TrainingCollege.) I contacted the C. of I. Training College by e-mail and was told they don't have a genealogist who can search their records for any hint of parentage/origins of their teachers back then. (Incidentally, several of their daughters and one son were teachers, and Rebecca married John [Lindsay] Johnston/e, another teacher who later worked for the educator and philanthropist Vere Henry Lewis Foster. Anyway, the daughters and the 2 sons did not leave us anything that indicates who the antecedents Veitch and [de] Winter were, and neither did our Grandfather.
The Fenagh search is a good idea for the future, but first i was thinking of trying to make some sense of what is available on Veitchs. (For all i know, George might even have been born outside of Ireland — the family were very keen on French and at least one of the daughters studied German as well, and my grandfather and one of his brothers joined the London Huguenot Society as apparently there was supposed to be a connection through the De Winters; not sure whether this was totally reliable or not.)

[Elwyn Soutter]

I do have copies of the death certificates of George and Catherine. They don't mention, however, the parents of either of them. This is why I hoped someone might be able to help with clues re the marriage, because marriage certificates usually mention at least the fathers.

For a marriage in the 1820s/30s, you wouldn't necessarily get the parents names. You may just get the couples names, their townlands and the 2 witnesses names. It was April 1845 when the provision for recording the father's name was introduced for non RC marriages. The mother's name has never been recorded, on a civil cert, even to this day.

[hallmark]

"...was told they don't have a genealogist who can search their records for any hint of parentage/origins of their teachers back then. "....they mightn't have a genealogist BUT do the records exist??  in that "We have records but no one to look at them"........

Finding where Rev W of Newtownbutler (Will of 1788) is buried could help find other graves.....Maybe RCB!

From;  ..The families of French of Belturbet and Nixon of Fermanagh, and their descendants (1908)..Not in Copyright;

Rose Anne Swanzy, married John Veitch, of Roseville, Co Cavan, Cornet 28th Light Dragoons 11 March, 1801, on the Irish
half-pay, eldest son of Charles Veitch, of Gartinardress, Co. Cavan. He d. s.p., will dated 18 Aug., 1840, proved 6 March,
1841.

The Swanzy Pedigree Book is in the RCB  http://www.flickr.com/photos/araireland/6837128791/in/photostream but purely from memory I think the Swanzys in Galway married Veitches of Galway.... even if so, there probably won't be much on the Veitches!!!

[hallmark]

I do have copies of the death certificates of George and Catherine. They don't mention, however, the parents of either of them. This is why I hoped someone might be able to help with clues re the marriage, because marriage certificates usually mention at least the fathers.

For a marriage in the 1820s/30s, you wouldn't necessarily get the parents names. You may just get the couples names, their townlands and the 2 witnesses names. It was April 1845 when the provision for recording the father's name was introduced for non RC marriages. The mother's name has never been recorded, on a civil cert, even to this day.

For Civil Certs this is the case, church records differ...if they exist. Unfortunately it is pot luck...Sometimes one even just gets a date and who married who, no witnesses/townland etc, just a miminal note.