Pictish ancestry

[JJ114]

Hi everyone, Has anyone had a successful Pictish DNA result and what were the markers? Many thanks for any reply. JJ114

[DevonCruwys]

I'm afraid it is not possible to identify "Pictish" markers, "Viking" markers, "Norman" markers or any other markers associated with particular groups. This pamphlet from Sense About Science explains why:

http://www.senseaboutscience.org/data/files/resources/119/Sense-About-Genetic-Ancestry-Testing.pdf

[supermoussi]

I'm afraid it is not possible to identify "Pictish" markers, "Viking" markers, "Norman" markers or any other markers associated with particular groups.

Someone should tell FTDNA this as they market a "Jewish DNA" test. Will you please tell them this Devon? 

[DevonCruwys]

Someone should tell FTDNA this as they market a "Jewish DNA" test. Will you please tell them this Devon? 
[/quote]

Where are you finding this test? I can't see anything on their website?

[supermoussi]

It has always been displayed prominently on their homepage in a rotating advertisement but they have just changed the cosmetics around very recently but can still be accessed on the site.

 "Discover your Jewish Ancestry, our Jewish comparitive databases are the largest in the world..... ORDER YOUR TEST NOW!"

http://www.familytreedna.com/landing/jewish-ancestry.aspx

Kerching!

So can you put an ethnic label, i.e. "Picts" and "Jewish", on DNA groups or can't you? That is the question...

[DevonCruwys]

I'd forgotten about that page but it's not really describing a "Jewish DNA test". I agree those old revolving pages were somewhat misleading and I would hope that with the website redesign they will eventually be consigned to history.

There are two aspects to your question. Jews are a slightly different case because we have living people who are Jewish with documented Jewish ancestry. We can't say the same for historical groups like the Picts, Vikings and Normans, and their DNA is now diluted in the present-day population. So it is perfectly feasible to take a DNA test to find genealogical matches with other Jewish people. In fact there are some mtDNA and Y-DNA subclades that are almost exclusively confined to Jewish people, and there have been numerous papers published in the scientific literature. It's much more difficult to use DNA to extrapolate about the origins of Jews from several thousand years ago, especially based only on Y-DNA and mtDNA, though again there have been many scientific papers on the subject.

Perhaps I should rephrase my original statement and say that "it is not possible to identify "Pictish" markers, "Viking" markers, "Norman" markers or any other markers associated with particular historic groups".

[supermoussi]

I'd forgotten about that page but it's not really describing a "Jewish DNA test".

Yes it is. It says "Discover your Jewish Ancestry... ORDER YOUR TEST NOW!" You can't get much clearer.

So it is perfectly feasible to take a DNA test to find genealogical matches with other Jewish people.

Absolutely, but FTDNA are not marketing it as a living person matching service. They are marketing it as a Jewish ANCESTRY test. It implies that you will discover something related to having Jewish ancestors if you pay them money.

What happens if you are Jewish and you pay FTDNA to take the test and they then tell you that you do not have Jewish DNA (I am sure they phrase it a bit better than this but that is how it will come across)? Money well spent? Very Dubious.

Conversely, what happens if you are not Jewish, and there is no trace whatsoever of Jewish ancestry in your tree, and yet you match FTDNA's definition of "Jewish DNA"? A good example (last I heard anyway) were the Cohanim markers found in some of the Jewish priesthood. Although, it does occur in a large chunk of this section of Jewish society the problem is it also is widespread throughout the entire middle-east. There is no way it can be labelled as "Jewish DNA". Perhaps it should be called "Assyrian/Babylonian DNA" as well?

Jewish people have history too you know. They can convert to and from the religion; many Jews from 3000 years ago are now Christians, Muslims or Atheists and they can even have NPEs. In other words the modern day Jewish population and geography does not reflect that of ancient times. If you find that there is a subset of the present day Jewish community that share some particular DNA it does not necessarily mean that they had Jewish ancestors 1000 years ago.

Your argument about not being able to say there is Pictish DNA also applies to Jewish DNA, they both have experienced geographical movement and dilution. Just as it is impossible to exactly pinpoint what is Pictish DNA, it is also impossible to exactly define what is Jewish DNA, but FTDNA are cashing in on the concept nevertheless, and using it as a marketing angle.


You also say that

 "it is not possible to identify ... markers associated with particular historic groups".

So why do FTDNA sell tests to see if you are descended from Niall of the Nine Hostages?

 http://www.familytreedna.com/landing/matching-niall.aspx

They say

 "suggesting that the 5th-century warlord known as "Niall of the Nine Hostages" may be the ancestor of one in 12 Irishmen"

Either you're wrong, or FTDNA are wrong. Which is it?

[hdw]

A certain prominent genealogical DNA-testing organisation claims to have discovered a Pictish DNA marker and they will test you for Pictishness if you cross their palms with enough silver. I once read a very detailed rebuttal of this claim online, but it seems to have been pulled as I can no longer find it. I know that the managing director of the company in question threatened to sue anyone who criticised his company and its methods, and that's why I'm choosing my words with great care.

On the other hand, let's not dismiss the Picts out of hand. The conventional wisdom among pre-historians now seems to be that they were simply the indigenous inhabitants of Scotland north of the Forth-Clyde line, and it's unlikely that they all conveniently sailed away into the west like the elves in "Lord of the Rings" when the Scots invaded from the west and the Angles from the south. Similarly, I don't think anyone nowadays believes that the Angles and Saxons completely replaced the Celtic Britons all over England. Clearly the Picts lost their language and along with it, their separate identity, but genetic genealogists like Brian Sykes and Stephen Oppenheimer of Oxford University have identified subtle differences between the R1b "Celtic" haplotypes found in the west of Scotland ("Dalriadic") and the east and north-east, former Caledonia or Pictland.

I had my DNA tested by FTDNA, the 67-marker test, and am R1b1a2a1a1b4, the common as muck Scottish norm. I get regular updates when they find a new match for me, and I have sometimes noticed that I have several matches with the same surname, a sure sign that there is a DNA One-Name project that these people have signed up to. A while ago I noticed that I was matching several people called Matheson, a name that appears nowhere in my family-tree, so I went looking for the Matheson project online. When I found it and checked their results, I discovered that my own results most closely matched those that the project director had put in a sub-section entitled "R1b - Pict". This made sense, as I was brought up in the village in Fife where my father's family has certainly lived since at least the time of the earliest parish records in 1577, and probably for much longer. And Fife was of course part of Pictland.

Harry

[davidft]

.......... I know that the managing director of the company in question threatened to sue anyone who criticised his company and its methods, and that's why I'm choosing my words with great care.

He would find it much harder to sue now, the libel laws were reformed at the beginning of the year

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25551640