Relationship between French Norman and English arms

[Jeremy Pyne]

Can anyone confirm whether there are known examples of Norman families settling in England c 12th century using an 'ordinary' such as a chevron to distinguish the English branch from the French. My suggested example is the family of de Pyn, with estates in Devon  (from 1150's) with the arms of the French De Pins family , but with an ermine chevron added.  Would this be a typical or likely move?

Jeremy

[KGarrad]

Armorial bearings, or coats of arms, really only came into being in the mid-12th Century?

[behindthefrogs]

Ordinaries were often added to a shield when a junior branch of a family were granted a coat of arms.  You are equally likely to find this with a branch of an English family

Formal shields were being adopted at the beginning of the 12th century and there are records like the one of 1127 when Henry I invested his son in-law Geofrey Plantagenet with a blue shield chraged with gold lions.  This shield was used for a number of generations and is one of early examples heraldic descent.  There is however little evidence that the control exerted by the heralds at tournaments became a wider control and recording until the 14th century

[Jeremy Pyne]

Thanks for those replies. In the case of the de Pyn family, I think the first definite contemporary ref to arms was in relation to Thomas De Pyn's arms in a roll of arms (harleian amnuscripts) dating to c 1280, though Risdon's notes of Devon refers to an earlier family member holding those arms at the time of Richard !, ie 1190's. Not sure of the earliest refs to the French arms but they are the same with the exception of a chevron in the case of the English family.(two main French branches one in Aquitaine and one in Languedoc - both with pedigrees documented to the 11th centrury at least) Question is how strong is the evidence that they were related. No specific family connection via named references has been identified to date but the helraldic connection does seem to present a strong likelihood

[supermoussi]

Might be a bit late but this could be another example to compare.

Richard LOVETT a Norman knight allegedly bore the following arms in France before the Conquest:-

 3 Wolves Heads or, in a field sable

His eldest son William LOVETT settled in England after the conquest and was granted the following variant of his fathers arms:-

 Argent, 3 Wolves Passant, in pale sable - -  http://www.heraldry.ws/gif/lovett-ireland.gif

I'm not an expert but this seems a widely accepted lineage and arms judging by what I have read and shows a change in design as the family moved across the channel, i.e., wolvesheads in France but complete wolves in England.

For more info see:- http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=kLHVAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA88&lpg=PA88&dq=lovett+of+normandy&source=bl&ots=DCQ3p_Q7RZ&sig=LRoAmjKR0TG-1G7Wl7uWdydF29w&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DnZ_UvWGMaLG0QXun4D4CA&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=lovett%20of%20normandy&f=false

[Jeremy Pyne]

Thanks for the latest reply - interesting - there is it seems reasonably strong doubt that there was any formal structure around arms as early as the conquest though so refs to pre conquest arms must carry a health warining I guess unless there are contemporary sources.
The de Pyn arms with added chevron only seem to come into play from the late 12th century.

[supermoussi]

there is it seems reasonably strong doubt that there was any formal structure around arms as early as the conquest though

I think that might be a bit of an understatement!

One thing I have read is that the need to make a coat of arms different to anyone elses means that early arms tend to be very simple (e.g. 3 lions) whereas more recent ones tend to be much more complex.

[MaecW]

Jeremy.

It is a reasonable assumption, in this period, that similar arms displayed by families of the same name indicate a relationship. After all there were only a relatively small number of lords and knights at this time, nearly all of Norman lineage, and many holding estates on both sides of the Channel.
A deliberate attempt to imply a relationship where none existed would soon be exposed.

The only way to be absolutely certain would be through documentary evidence of the period. By the time we get to the Visitations, two to three hundred years later, family myths and legends start to intrude.  .   On the balance of probabilities I think you can assume relationship unless proved otherwise.

And, for some of the other posters here who seem a little confused,  Heraldry, as we understand it, started to develop in the early 12th century (from about 1120 onwards). Any decoration of shields before that seem to be maker's design and not the personal emblem of the owner.

Maec

[supermoussi]

It is a reasonable assumption, in this period, that similar arms displayed by families of the same name indicate a relationship.

I think that is very iffy. A tradition emerged in heraldry where people assumed they were related to another family of the same surname and adopted similar but not quite the same arms. You need to be careful here.