Farm/croft of Riddentrath, Fordyce

[Fordyce]

Another puzzle: 'Riddentrath' turns up in the Baptisms OPR on 21 Nov 1692 with James Gray in Riddentrath and again on 9 Mar 1697 with John Gray in Riddentrath. It's reasonably clearly written both times: I am fairly sure the initial is an 'R' and not a 'K' or a 'B' say, but the 'e' might be construed as an 'o' in the 1692 record. From context, it's probably near Durn and Auchmore farms just outside Portsoy. There's nothing I've found that hints at where it might have been.

Anybody happen across this name, or perhaps suggest a derivation?

How many other 'lost places' must there be lurking in the OPRs?!

[Istrice]

Hi Fordyce,

Reedhythe Point lies between Portsoy, and Sandend to the west.  A hamlet "Rydhyve" is shown in the location on the Timothy Pont map C1590, and on subsequent maps of the area.  Possibly the current Reidhaven is the nearest present day habitation.
The location is pretty close to Durn and Auchmore as anticipated by yourself, and a Redhythe Croft http://maps.nls.uk/view/75496746 is shown on the 1904 6" OS Sheet.

Reed > Reeden > Ridden
Could the "Riddentrath" have been a phonetic spelling of a local name for this place that has long since been disused and subsequently lost?  Perhaps old books about the history of the area could furnish the answer.

Regrettably, I have no great expertise in such matters, but I am sure that other Rootschat members with greater knowledge of the subject will be able to assist further.

Regards
Istrice

[Fordyce]

Hi Istrice,
Thanks for the idea. However, I believe that the lands of Redhyth have been around spelt more or less thus for far longer, as in Walter Ogilvie of Redhyth who created the Redhyth Bursaries in 1678 for the education of local boys, and Charles I granting items to Walter Ogilvie of Reidhythe in 1632, and because of its status most certainly wouldn't have been misspelt in the OPR by the parish clerk!

But your point about Ridden... being a form of Reed... or Red... is a good one. Actually, it's Reid and Red that are interchangable (e.g. in OS 2nd ed, Reidhaven farmstead (today now named Redhythe) and Redhythe Croft (still named thus) are neighbouring dwellings).

Taking that as a cue, I can now see a better candidate: the farm of Redstack at the bottom of Durn Hill beside the series of dwellings known as Hillside, south of Durn and Auchmore and adjacent to Knockdurn. Even that is now known as Reidstack today, beside the B9022

This fits perfectly with other contemporary Grays who were at Hillside and Knockdurn, so I'm persuaded that Riddentrath (I've since found it in the OPR twice more) became Redstack in later years (which has now become Reidstack).

It's just dawned upon me that Hythe means Haven. I'm now really out of my depth, but as far as I can find out, to Redd is old scots to clear away, with Reddan, Riddan or Ridding being obvious derivatives (modern: to rid, as in get rid of, or good riddance?!). Redhythe was a known haven for sailing vessels so Redhythe could mean something along the lines of a cleared haven. That's my story and I'll stick to it .... unless someone knows better....!

All I've to do now is explain away how 'trath' (? Gaelic for 'time, season, period', rather than a truncated 'strath') morphed into 'stack' or maybe 'slack' (a boggy depression). So how about: Riddentrath: a cleared boggy depression. Nothing to do with genealogy of course but given that today Reidstack is on the flat ground below Hillside and next to Moss Of Reid Plantation, intriguing.

[Istrice]

Hi Fordyce,

Thanks for the information regarding Redhyth.  Like you, I puzzled over possible derivations and interpretations, and came up with some of the same answers as yourself.

Two further throws of the dice might be:-
A) the Register of Sasines, and a search for papers relating either to specific properties you have identified as possibilities, or to the estate (Redhyth?) on whose land these properties may be situated.  The subscription website "Who owns Scotland" indicates that a single estate controls the potential search area.  A phone call to the planning office in Banff may identify the estate owners if you don't already have the information, and a further call to the estate office itself could be productive
B) a search through the online catalogues of the NLS may throw up some relevant information.

Good luck with your searches.

Istrice

[warble]

In Scots "ridden" means recovered or established and "roth" is a legal term for a clear title so maybe that could be the derivation.

[Fordyce]

These places are all on the Seafield Estate.

Riddentrath (Redstack) was no more than part of the estate, cultivated by at least two families at any one time as so many locations were, so I'm afraid sasines are not going to be of any help. From what I know from maps of the neighbouring Birkenbog Estate dated 1777, farms were not as we know them today, all neatly enclosed, but a varied collection of islands of unconnected cultivated areas surrounded by unimproved ground or rough pasture. It's a step too far for me to go hunting through Seafield Estate records in the hope that tenancy records go back far enough to see whether Riddentrath even existed as a tenancy or when it might have morphed into Redstack.

On the meaning of Ridden, it depends whose Scots Dictionary ones consults, so yer pays yer money.... although 'cleared', 'recovered' and 'established' in the context of land are pretty synonymous to me.

Re Roth, one dictionary gives the meaning of 'roth' as 'wheel' rather than 'title'! Given such differing views on modern meanings of old words, I'll leave it at that.