Author Topic: Surname Tests - Realistic Expectations  (Read 15668 times)

Offline KGarrad

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Re: Surname Tests - Realistic Expectations
« Reply #18 on: Thursday 29 August 13 08:59 BST (UK) »
When considering DNA there is no such thing as English, Scottish or Welsh or Irish.

Interesting consideration, Guy. Do you often "consider" there aren't any great-great-Grandparents because you can't see them? :)

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Offline joboy

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Re: Surname Tests - Realistic Expectations
« Reply #19 on: Thursday 29 August 13 10:01 BST (UK) »
The original post on this thread shows one reason why DNA genealogy is a flawed "science" it is based on misconceptions.

...The US is a melting pot from all over the world and so has a different ethnic breakdown compared to Britain. Even when you look at the part of the American population that has British origins, its breakdown is still different than that in old blighty. Whereas the largest part of the UK's populace are English, then the Scottish and finally the Welsh and Irish....

Those English ancestors would they be Roman-English, French-English, Viking-English, German-English, Angles, Saxons, Jutes or one of any group of immigrants from all over Europe and beyond? Similarly with Scotland, Wales & Ireland, the history of the countries has involved peoples from all over Europe (and beyond) inhabiting the land and interbreeding with those living there at the time.

When considering DNA there is no such thing as English, Scottish or Welsh or Irish.
At present DNA is about as useful to genealogy as a bucket shop selling histories of a family surname.

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Thanks Guy ........ that's put the cat amongst the pigeons  ;D ;D
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Offline DevonCruwys

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Re: Surname Tests - Realistic Expectations
« Reply #20 on: Thursday 29 August 13 11:14 BST (UK) »
[When considering DNA there is no such thing as English, Scottish or Welsh or Irish. At present DNA is about as useful to genealogy as a bucket shop selling histories of a family surname.

It is indeed quite true that DNA cannot be used to tell you whether you are English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish but that is not what genealogical DNA tests are being used for. Y-chromosome DNA tests are used within surname projects to determine whether or not two men are related within a genealogical time frame. The more markers that are tested and the more markers that match the more confident you can be that the relationship is correct. As with any genealogical tool a DNA test is not used on its own but in combination with other genealogical evidence. The problems with DNA tests only arise when people draw false inferences from the haplogroups and try to claim that a Y-line is of Viking, Celt, Norman or Pictish origin.

Autosomal DNA tests using over 700,000 markers can be used to confirm close relationships within  the last five generations or so. There have been reports of people being reunited with close family members (eg, half-siblings, first cousins) by having a match in one of the large autosomal DNA databases.

The mitochondrial DNA test is less useful for genealogy purposes because even with the full mitochondrial sequence test if two people have an exact match the common ancestor could still have lived over 400 years ago. It's also much more difficult tracing the female line because the surname changes with every new generation.

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Offline KGarrad

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Re: Surname Tests - Realistic Expectations
« Reply #21 on: Thursday 29 August 13 15:07 BST (UK) »
Missing the point again! ;D

What Guy said was: There is no such thing as English DNA.
Because it is very hard to define what you mean by "English"?

Angles?
Saxons?
Anglo-Saxon? (not quite the same as the previous 2)
Jutes?
Frisians?
Vikings?
Romans?
Celts? Of which variety?
Normans?
Spanish? (allegedly from the Armada!)
etc., etc.

And that's not even starting on Welsh, Irish or Scots! ;D
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Offline davidft

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Re: Surname Tests - Realistic Expectations
« Reply #22 on: Thursday 29 August 13 15:16 BST (UK) »
Oh dear see this thread has now gone to the dogs.

why do people do it?  ???
James Stott c1775-1850. James was born in Yorkshire but where? He was a stonemason and married Elizabeth Archer (nee Nicholson) in 1794 at Ripon. They lived thereafter in Masham. If anyone has any suggestions or leads as to his birthplace I would be interested to know. I have searched for it for years without success. Thank you.

Offline DevonCruwys

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Re: Surname Tests - Realistic Expectations
« Reply #23 on: Thursday 29 August 13 15:48 BST (UK) »

What Guy said was: There is no such thing as English DNA.
Because it is very hard to define what you mean by "English"?

Angles?
Saxons?
Anglo-Saxon? (not quite the same as the previous 2)
Jutes?
Frisians?
Vikings?
Romans?
Celts? Of which variety?
Normans?
Spanish? (allegedly from the Armada!)
etc., etc.

And that's not even starting on Welsh, Irish or Scots! ;D

We are not using DNA tests to find out whether we are Celts, Romans, Normans or anything else. DNA testing cannot give us answers like that for the very reasons that Guy has already stated. DNA testing does, however, have a very legitimate use for genealogy as described earlier.
Researching: Ayshford, Berryman, Bodger, Boundy, Cruse, Cruwys, Dillon, Faithfull, Kennett, Keynes, Ratty, Tidbury, Trask, Westcott, Wiggins, Woolfenden.

Offline lizdb

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Re: Surname Tests - Realistic Expectations
« Reply #24 on: Thursday 29 August 13 16:43 BST (UK) »
. DNA testing does, however, have a very legitimate use for genealogy as described earlier.

Could somebody, in one or two simple sentances of plain Engilsh without jargon, please explain what that is?
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Offline DevonCruwys

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Re: Surname Tests - Realistic Expectations
« Reply #25 on: Thursday 29 August 13 23:54 BST (UK) »
You might like to read this article written by Kelly Wheaton:

https://sites.google.com/site/wheatonsurname/beginners-guide-to-genetic-genealogy

It is written from a US perspective but the basic principles still apply.
Researching: Ayshford, Berryman, Bodger, Boundy, Cruse, Cruwys, Dillon, Faithfull, Kennett, Keynes, Ratty, Tidbury, Trask, Westcott, Wiggins, Woolfenden.

Offline acorngen

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Re: Surname Tests - Realistic Expectations
« Reply #26 on: Friday 30 August 13 02:13 BST (UK) »
R1B is not typical Brit at all it is Typical western europe.  The present royal family are R1B has was the last Russian Tsar and the last German royalty.  SO please get facts right.

Guy Angles Saxons and Jutes are German therefore would fall into your English German lines :)

Lindsay DNA testing and results is based on probabilities and therefore not 100% Therefore some supposition is indeed used.

K Garrad Guy is technically correct.  The division of English Welsh and Scottish is fairly modern.  The Welsh are in fact Celts and have French blood.  The Scots or should that be Gaels have Viking blood and thus are descendents of the North Germanic people and we English are a mis match of German French Italian and other European countries.  So Guy was actually stating what couldnt be seen and you have failed to see this.

Devon A-DNA at 5 generations has I believe only a 10% accuracy and therefore not worth anything.

Now on to a pet hate of mine the US and genealogy.  Some Americans are happy to accept anything they are told.  As an example there is a book available on Wyatt genealogy in the US that has a relationship and children from the said relationship which could not have taken place when the Wyatt male actually died at 13 with no children of his own.  Try telling the US Wyatt descendents this and they will call you an ass because it is written down.  Therefore they are being told by DNA companies that XYZ is how it is and they accept it without question. One US researcher told me in an email only yesterday on this subject that she uses DNA becuase she cant afford to come to the UK and carry out a paper trail research project.  Now she couldnt understand that without the paper trail she couldnt say with any certainty that what the DNA was showing her was in fact correct

Rob
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