John Carmichael lookup please

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Son Andrew died 1858 - son Alexander Carnegie died 1863 in Dundee.   So where did the family go after 1863?

Annette

Hi sorry i made a boo boo. The date they came over on the 'Viola' was 1864 so that explains why they don't appear on later census.

[loobylooayr]

No problem.
At least we know they should be on 1851 and 1861.
What years were William and James the two sons born?

[spacecookie]

Hi, no i haven't got the dates for William and James.On the ships list when it left Glasgow 1864 it says William age 6, James 13 months. On Williams Marriage cert he was 25 in 1884.So 1858-1859 is the best i can do.Actualy something i haven't done here in NZ is try to trace James.Someone here might have some info on him so that may help with it all to.I will try that and let you know if i find anything that can help.thank you for all this help, i couldn't have done it on my own.Half the trouble is these are my ex inlaws,im doing it for my kids so they have some history, and most of them have all passed away now.

[loobylooayr]

All the birth certificates for the boys (and the death certificates for the two that died) should be available to view on Scotlands People   www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk    as they were all born and died after 1855 which is when official compulsory registration started.
Scotlands People is a pay to view site - £7 buys 30 credits - each item takes a minimum of 6 credits to view.

[Annette7]

The 1861 Census details are:

1861 Census - Overgate, Lawsons Close, Dundee, Forfarshire

John Carmichael    42     Slater      b. Kinross, Orwell
Helen Carmichael   33                   b. Forfarshire, Dundee
James Carmichael  Son  10                  b. Lanarkshire, Glasgow
William *Dawson    Boarder   3            b. Forfarshire, Dundee
Alexr. Carmichael   Son    1 1/2                       ditto

*Transcribed on Ancestry as Dawson but have viewed original on SP and doesn't look like Dawson to me, possibly Lawson - definitely ends in 'son'.

1851 Census - 202 (?) Overgate, Dundee, Forfarshire

Helen Carmichael   25    Slater wife      b. Forfarshire, Dundee
James Carmichael   1                           b. Lanarkshire, Glasgow
Elizabeth Duncan   19   Sister Unm.   Mill Worker   b. Forfarshire, Dundee. 

This raises a number of questions:

1. Looks as if 'William' wasn't the natural son of John and Helen - clearly shown with a different surname (be it Dawson or something similar) and a 'Boarder' on 1861 census.  I can't see on birth indexes that John and Helen had a son William of their own.   They did have a son Andrew Duncan born 22/8/1857, died 1858 born around the same time as William.  Perhaps they took in William having just lost their own child - whatever the reason it certainly would seem that he was not their own child although perhaps he was never told this and believed them to be his parents.

2. James Carmichael was bc.1850 in Glasgow and I'm guessing the age of 13months is an error on ships list for 1864 and should read 13 rather than 13 months.  He was certainly alive in 1861 and there is no death entry for him between 1861 and 1864.

3. Cannot find John Carmichael on 1851 Census - just his wife Helen with son James and sister Elizabeth Duncan.   If Helen was Couper/Cooper how was her sister a Duncan?

So, there is no trace of John and Helen having a son William ca.1858 which is when they did have a son Andrew Duncan b.1857, d.1858 but they did have a William Dawson (or similar) who was aged 3 and a Boarder in 1861.   Seems too much of a coincidence for William Carmichael in 1864 not to be this person who was probably raised from an infant by John and Helen - sort of an unofficial adoption.   This, of course, puts a spanner in the works as it seems that William wasn't actually a Carmichael at all and his actual surname is difficult to read on the census.   If you buy some credits for Scotlands People you can view the 1861 Census image yourself and you can see for yourself the difficulty on reading his surname.   Births index shows no William born in Dundee as Dawson and I don't believe the name is Dawson - possibly Lowson, definitely ends 'son'.

Sorry to mess things up!

Annette
     

[loobylooayr]

Oh-oh! A spanner in the works.
But interesting....wonder where John is in 1851?
I don't have free access to the 1861, Annette, so I can't look but is there any chance William Dawson is a William DUNCAN? Just wondering with Helen sister's name being Duncan on the 1851

Looby

[Annette7]

No, it's definitely not Duncan (had the same initial thought myself).

If I was more computer literate I'd post that section of the image but don't know how to do it I'm afraid.

Annette

[loobylooayr]

Don't know how to do it either.
Strangely there is an illegitimate William Duncan born in 1857 at Dundee to an Agnes Duncan...I was hopeful for a moment.
Looby

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Hi Looby, yes it has mixed things up a bit. It is definitely Couper (looks like cooper) on the Marriage cert for William. It has what looked like Ellen,but must be Helen.Although the name Ellen is handed down.But i think it is the right family.I wonder why the sister has a different surname? The plot thickens.Unless their mother was married twice or something like that.Its a puzzle. thank you guys for your help in all this.