Another illegitimate child?

[Jillie42]

My gt grandmother Mary Anne Lane was born to a Hannah Lane in late 1871 in St Saviour Union workshouse, Southwark. Father unknown.

Mary Anne doesn't seem to appear on a census again until 1891 when she is married to Henry Sutcliffe.

I have assumed that to for a woman to give birth in a particular workhouse she must be resident in the parish. The most likely candidate for a Hannah Lane, probably umarried is Hannah Lane aged 14 from Lambeth.

1871 census RG10/661/45/38

1881 census RG11/655/14/21

In 1881 Hannah is still recorded as single aged 24 and with her brother Francis aged 22 also single. Martha Lane, present on the 1871 census appears to have died in 1878 aged 56.

On the 1881 census there is also a William Lane - son aged 7

I think he must be Hannah's son, illegitimate, as she is still single. He would have been born only 3 years after my gt grandmother Mary Anne.

I think I probably have the correct Hannah - simply the fact that she went on to have another illegitimate child adds some weight. Where is my Mary Anne though?

[Valda]

It doesn't actually follow that Hannah was in anyway a long term resident in the poor law union whose workhouse she gave birth in. She may for instance have just been working in the area as a servant. If that is the case the (workhouse) poor law records will show her removal to the parish of her previous longer term residency.
The workhouse records themselves will give some limited background information for Hannah when she was admitted and then discharged.
The records are held at The London Metropolitan Archives.

http://www.workhouses.org.uk/index.html?StSaviour/StSaviour.shtml


Where does Mary Ann reappear on the 1891 census? What details are given on her marriage to Henry? Is this her marriage

Marriages Jun 1890   
LANE  Mary Ann    St Saviour  1d 215     
Sutcliffe  John     St Saviour  1d 215   

If Hannah Lane married between 1871 and 1881, then her daughter may very well appear on the 1881 census as a member of her stepfather's family with his surname. People didn't always choose to tell the census enumerator that their wives had had an illegitimate child.

Regards

Valda

[Jillie42]

Valda,

thanks for the reply

Yes, that is the correct Mary Anne and Henry Sutcliffe. Hannah did marry in late 1881 ( I think - I only discovered that after I posted this thread) to an Edward Oaxley or Oakley according to free BMD. In 1891 she is living with him and her son William and then additional children.

Mary Anne and Henry, infact all the Sutcliffes continued to live in the South London area until 1965.

[Valda]

I didn't necessarily mean the Hannah Lane you have decided was Mary Ann's mother. Unfortunately you have no proof that she was the mother of Mary Ann except that she lived in Lambeth and had an illegitimate son. That is not proof.
If she is not Mary Ann's mother then Mary Ann's mother could have married and Mary Ann on the censuses may appear under her stepfather's surname.

Can you give the details of Mary Ann's marriage and the 1891 census reference for her?
Did she marry John or Henry Sutcliffe?

Regards

Valda

[Jillie42]

I didn't necessarily mean the Hannah Lane you have decided was Mary Ann's mother. Unfortunately you have no proof that she was the mother of Mary Ann except that she lived in Lambeth and had an illegitimate son. That is not proof.
If she is not Mary Ann's mother then Mary Ann's mother could have married and Mary Ann on the censuses may appear under her stepfather's surname.

Can you give the details of Mary Ann's marriage and the 1891 census reference for her?
Did she marry John or Henry Sutcliffe?

Regards

Valda

Sorry Valda,

this is what happens when you try to write a quick reply at work when you shouldn't be using the internet

I don't have any proof that Hannah is Mary Anne's mother. I assumed, probably wrongly. that because she was in the St Saviour's workhouse that she must have been living in the parish for sometime to qualify and would therefore be on the 1871 census living in the correct area. I'm still at work so can't get to MAry Anne's marriage certificate until I get home.

[Jillie42]

If memeory serves me though Mary Anne and Henry were married at St mary Magdalene, Bermondsey.

[Valda]

Assuming is really just another word for having no proof. You should always stop yourself as soon as you hear yourself assuming or presuming.
 
If you were heavily pregnant and about to give birth and could not give birth at home or with relatives then you would go to the nearest place that would help you. The workhouse infirmary (basically the equivalent of a hospital - many became National Health Hospitals in 1948 when the NHS was formed) would receive you and then immediately go about working out where your place of settlement was and if at all possible remove you to some other parish workhouse to be chargeable on their ratepayers.

The Hannah Lane who lived in Lambeth had a home there to give birth in. Lambeth is not St Saviour Southwark - a totally different poor law union. 14 is young to be giving birth in a period when women did not begin menstruating until later than they do today. Not impossible but where is her daughter on the 1881 census if Mary Ann was her daughter?

When you have the information in front of you could we have the full details of Mary Ann's marriage to John/Henry Sutcliffe and where they can be found on 1891 census?

Regards

Valda

[behindthefrogs]

St Saviour was a Union workhouse that is serving the poor of a number of parishes.  Southwark, St George the Martyr, Newingon and St Mary.  It later became Dulwich Hospital.

David

[Jillie42]

Valda,

I am suitably chastened and after my period on the naughty step I have located Mary Anne's marriage certificate

As you say assuming is not proof but we all have to start somewhere. Nor would I have claimed that Hannah was part of my family unless I had definite proof.

John Sutcliffe Aged 20 a carman of Barlow Street married Mary Anne Lane 19 Spinster also living in Barlow street at the parish church of St Mary Magdalene Southwark on June 29th 1890.

Mary claimed that her father was one Edward Lane, Lighterman but no such man exists on any census and the Guildhall Library have no apprentiship papers for a lighterman of that name.

on the 1891 and 1901 census Mary Anne says she came from Rotherhithe.
Assuming I have the correct birth certificate (oops there I again - back on the naughty step Mary Anne was registered in the registration district of St Olave Southwark, sub district St John Horsleydown. Her birth certificate says that she was born on the 4th October 1871 Union Workhouse. Father's name left blank.

I did wonder whether Mary had lied about the location of her birth but someone else on  Rootschat pointed out to me that being born Rotherhithe in 1871 was not the sort of thing you boast about.

I don't know London well, well not at all actually, and thought that Lambeth was very close to Southwark. You have to make allowances for us country bumpkins you know. Cities are big, scary places to us.

I didn't know that workhouse infirmaries could be used by "non-residents" and I'm a bit confused as reading the link posted earlier the infirmary wasn't completed until 1887. I'll go back and read it again.