Helen from Stirling - married James PRESTON

[CaroleW]

Last ditch possibility

If he allegedly married Marion in 1853 - I would have expected more children pre-1861

I wonder if 30.3.1853 should read 1855 or even 1858?

[loobylooayr]

Marion McQuarrie's father John Mcquarrie aged 40 in 1841 Census-
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTKJ-VDW

He was born to Robert McQuarrie and Hannah Stevenson on 26 Feb 1801 at Sorn Ayrshire (not far from Cumnock).

Robert and Hannah McQuarrie are also on the 1841 Census both with ages of 65 years old at Straiton.
With the Scots tendency to use family names for their offspring I think Hannah Preston was Marion McQuarrie's daughter.

Could Helen be a pet name for Elizabeth Preston? Who knows but I suppose it's possible?

 
Looby

[andycand]

Hi

The period between 1843 and 1855 is a particularly difficult period in Scotland because of the split in the Church of Scotland when many people and parishes broke away to form the Free Church. The OPRs on Scotlandspeople are for the Church of Scotland and whilst some parishes do seemed to have noted events that occurred in other denominations many didn't.
The index for the birth of Hannah Preston in Familysearch just has a birth date and no christening date, do you have the image? If so what is the exact wording? also, does it appear in the correct sequence with others on the page? The reason I ask is that sometimes parishes just record DOB for other denominations, or not record them at all. That could account for the 2 missing children between 1843 and 1853.
Unfortunately dates are not always accurate when Parishes record events from other denominations, I have a family member who was christened in the United Presbyterian church 5th January 1840 but according to the Parish Register she was born 1st November 1840. I suspect her actual birth was 1st November 1839.

Andy

[Fordyce]

We're focussing on Hannah PRESTON when I'm trying to identify this Helen from Stirling!

I have in the past researched the Hannah PRESTON question exhaustively. I haven't been able to come up with any scenario that isn't flatly contradicted by some piece of evidence. I haven't been able to decide which piece of evidence is wrong (and, just as importantly, why). And I'm not going to arbitrarily decide which evidence is wrong and which is right, not for my gtgdmother - whereas if she was a relative on a collateral line I would plump for a 'balance of probability' and move on.

To answer andycand, I do have the image, The wording is:-
"Preston : James Sibbald Preston, engineer, & Elizabeth Oglvie had a lawful daughter their 4th child named Hannah born 30th September 1853 at 64 Parliamentary Rd. Thomas & John Preston" - Barony Parish Register Sept 1853, in good chrono sequence and in the same style as every other entry on the page. Thomas & John Preston are witnesses and are the child's only two uncles. Nothing is odd about the wording or positioning, or anything else about this record itself.

You might say the parish clerk simply got the wife's name wrong (but how/why?). But now explain the birth certificate of Marion PRESTON, dau of James PRESTON & Marion McQUARRIE born 28 Aug 1855 (at 64 Parliamentary Rd) - she signs the register so she is literate and she records Marion PRESTON as "her 1st child".....

I know even that's not true because Marion McQUARRIE had an illeg child Mary GRANT by David GRANT, born abt 1850 in Straiton AYR. So was Marion PRESTON "her 1st child married"? Then why not say "her 2nd child [married]"? One scenario has crossed my mind which perhaps comes the nearest to resolving things - Marion PRESTON was truly "her 1st child [by her husband]", implying Hannah PRESTON was Marion McQUARRIE's child but not by James PRESTON, and the OPR is James PRESTON passing off the child as his own - this is at least understandable but again is flatly contradicted by the OPR birth record in 1853 in at least two ways - wrong father and wrong mother!

In answer to loobylooayr, I'm aware of naming conventions and you're absolutely right - Hannah is a recurring McQuarrie forename. I give that weight, but that's not enough to conclude that Hannah IS her child, merely that McQUARRIE naming conventions have been followed. Also, the mother on Hannah's marriage and death is indeed Marion McQUARRIE, and I give the marriage certificate due weight too, but it's still not sufficiently persuasive to overthrow the 1853 OPR, given that Hannah, if not actually her daughter, has been brought up as though her daughter.

Re CaroleW's last ditch possibility, sorry, no. Apart from '1853' being recorded on various later cerificates, the actual date of marriage was 5 Apr 1853, per evidence on Marion McQUARRIE's Poor Relief Application in 1894 which has against the question Proof of Marriage: "Lines Seen", plus a detailed resume of those marriage lines. There were children born at regular intervals pre-1861: Marion 28 Aug 1855 Elisabeth 7 Dec 1857 Jemima Margaret 23 Dec 1859 and another three until 1868. This 'evidence of fertility' fits nicely with Hannah b 30 Sep 1853 being Marion McQUARRIE's but you still have that contradictory OPR record to answer to.

Not sure where you got the 30.3.1853 date from - the Barony Parish Register has 20 Mar 1853 (and the future wife's name as Mary iso Marion!) - the date of proclamation.

Lastly, I concede there is a gap where there is no evidence at all re the identity of Elizabeth OGILVIE. Nothing is actually known about her parentage and age. But like the proverbial duck, if she lives in Haddington before marriage, marries in Haddington, has a child in Haddington, then she ain't from Stirling.

So now I'd like to return to Helen from Stirling.
Who?

One record is intriging where, like André Previn, everything is there but not necessarily in the right order:
From the IGI: marriage 18 Apr 1841 Stirling, Stirlingshire bet James Preston & Grace Carron (d/o Patrick Carron).
Can anybody expand upon that couple?

[loobylooayr]

Hi Fordyce,

We're focussing on Hannah PRESTON when I'm trying to identify this Helen from Stirling!

Sorry if we were deviating away from  your search for Helen from Stirlingshire. But sometimes as you will no doubt know, we have to "go round the houses" and look at things from all angles to get  to get an answer. And unfortunately that can result in us Rootschatters posting info which you may already have.

So apologies again for looking at the birth of Hannah Preston.

As for Helen well , today, I've spent a  fair bit of time on your mystery and cannot find anything relating to Helen. If she is not recorded as James's wife on his death certificate either the marriage was so brief it was forgotten or as you will no doubt have considered  she is living with him as a "bidey-in" and using the name Preston.
This does of course not explain how Elizabeth Ogilvie/Preston is alive and kicking and giving birth to a daughter Hannah two and a half year after this Census and 6 months after James marries Marion McQuarrie.
I can only say from my own family history (and from working with Adult Learners on  Trace you Family History courses), that many widowed men  with young children found a wife or a female companion with a few months of their wives deaths. So had Elizabeth died pre 1851- it would make sense to me that James with a young daughter Grace would find a "substitute" smartly. But of course, you don't have proof that Elizabeth did die.

Regarding Elizabeth, there is another contender for her on the 1841 Census and naturally you may have considered her already.
An Elizabeth Ogilvie aged 20 Female Servant at Craigie House, St Quivox Ayrshire and born outside the County.
She is working in the  home of James Campbell and Grace Elizabeth Campbell and their children. The Campbells are wealthy landowners with Midlothian connections (most of their children are born in Edinburgh).  Some of their staff are Ayrshire/some are not. And in 1851 Craigie House has at least 2 East Lothian staff. But you will probably never prove that.
I can also see how why are leaning to John Ogilvie , blacksmith as potential father to Elizabeth.

Anyway I will close by saying- sorry nothing to give you on the mysterious Helen.
And nothing to give you on the James Preston and Grace Carron who marry 1841. They are hiding well on the 1841 Census which was taken just weeks after their marriage. I cannot find them om FreeCen's website anywhere. In fact I began to think Carron is a mistranscription, less that 50 in the whole of Scotland on 1841.

Sorry I can be of no  assistance,
Good Luck.
Looby

[Fordyce]

Looby, I didn't mean it to come over as criticism, more of a friendly nudge. As it happens, I was going to post something on the East Lothian board when I had got around to looking at all the possible Elizabeth OGILVIEs scattered around, in like manner to a related post already on the Lanarkshire board about another player in this saga - Neil McLAUCHLIN.

But since you mention the Elizabeth OGILVIE in 1841 at St Quivox, I hadn't got any further than noting there were two OGILVIE families in St Quivox in 1841, both in Whitletts Village and both born Ireland, plus this Elizabeth, and in 1851 again only two families, heads both born Ireland. So this Elizabeth is not from a local OGILVIE incomer family. I'm intrigued by the Craigie House family and Lothian connections, and have noted this Elizabeth OGILVIE as a 'fitting candidate', but for the moment cannot think how I can progress this.

Re the CARRON marriage, now I've obtained the OPR, this James PRESTON is a labourer, and there is a suggestion they never married, so instead I wonder whether it was the same James PRESTON who married BRIDGET McTAVY (McTAVISH) 15 May 1842. Both born Ireland and found in 1851, the McTavishes were Hawkers and all this would explain both their absences from the 1841 census. I wouldn't be surprised that Grace & Patrick CARRON were Irish as well - CARRON seems to be an Irish surname. So much so, that I've now discounted these from my research.

Thanks for you, and the others, for taking the interest, time and effort in thinking around this knotty problem.

[andycand]

Hi

I can think of a couple of explanations for Helen. One possibility is that Helen and Elizabeth are the same person. Unfortunately we can't access the original census form completed by the household, only the Enumerators Book, so if the image is clearly Helen then we don't know whether the Enumerator has made a mistake or not.
Another possibility is that James and Elizabeth were not together for a period and Helen came on the scene during that period but if that was the case where was Elizabeth in the 1851 census.

The Parish register entry for Hannah Preston is still puzzling me. You say that the Parish Register says "Preston : James Sibbald Preston, engineer, & Elizabeth Oglvie had a lawful daughter their 4th child named Hannah born 30th September 1853 at 64 Parliamentary Rd. Thomas & John Preston" - Barony Parish Register Sept 1853, There is no mention of Baptism, normally an entry would say that a child was baptised on a date, and, if you are lucky, also have a date of birth. From my own family research just a date of birth suggests the possibility of them not being Church of Scotland. Unfortunately other denominations such as the Free Church of Scotland, United Presbyterian Church and the Episcopal Church (the Anglican Church in Scotland) are, apart from a small number, not online.

Andy

[Fordyce]

Andy, all nine entries on the page image I have are structured the same - they are all records of births. On only three has the date of baptism has been added, in a different hand and clearly inserted afterwards. The batch number on the IGI is C119683 (film 1041480, which is records of Church of Scotland, Parish Church of Barony) if you want to see, en masse. The named Witnesses [sic] in every case are against the record of birth, not the occasional subsequent baptism, which is indeed something I don't think I've really come across anywhere else.

Without going into details, marriages on both the Preston and Geddes sides were a mixture of Free and Established with a couple of Baptist for good measure.

Re the 1851 census, yes it is clear. I cannot accept that Helen was a familiar name for Elizabeth (not least because 'Helen' has never turned up as a name anywhere subsequently in the family whereas 'Elizabeth', and even 'Elizabeth Ogilvie', has) - unless someone shows me that Elizabeth/Helen Ogilvie came from Stirling....

On the other hand, I have come across examples where two intended entries for a census have been conflated into one line - but even that doesn't ring true because what would have been the non-wife third line comes before their eldest daughter Grace - so this non-wife Helen is unlikely to be servant, visitor, or even one of the 'missing' 2 children who would be necessarily younger than Grace. If that conflation has happened, then this Helen person becomes less significant but new questions arise.

James Preston was originally a blacksmith in Haddington then became an engineer fitter journeyman in Glasgow - he could have worked on the railways, and this could have included a stint at Stirling with the Scottish Central Railway which opened in 1845. But this is mere speculation which gets me nowhere.

I'm coming to the conclusion that interpreting this 1851 census entry is a lost cause unless some other evidence comes to light. Cannot say you all haven't tried though!

[loobylooayr]

Hi Fordyce,

I thought I had a lead but my hope were cruelly dashed.

Elizabeth Ogilvie daughter of John Ogilvie, blacksmith and Elizabeth Neil had a sister called Helen born in 1819. I believe she is on the 1841 Census at Duddinston/South Leith as a domestic servant. I had visions of her racing to Glasgow on the death of her sister to step into the breach but then I found her marriage to a Thomas Ralston and the couple (Helen gives Dunbar, East Lothian as her P.O.B) are on the 1851 in Edinburgh.

You mention that on John Ogilvie's MI there is a suggestion that daughter Elizabeth died in infancy. Did that specifically mention the birth date of the Elizabeth born 1821? I only ask because I've come across a few cases lately where a child who died shortly after birth was given the name of an already existing, hale and hearty sibling!
There is a lot to nudge you towards a blacksmith's daughter from Haddington marrying a young blacksmith from the same town - including the info that the Cautioner was a John Ogilvie.

But I tend to agree with you I don't think Helen from Stirlingshire is Elizabeth Ogilvie. Why put Stirlingshire if you were born in East Lothian ,married there and gave birth there (young Grace has been recorded as born East Lothian). Who Helen was may remain a mystery. It's just a pity she never specified where in Stirlingshire. It's as if she didn't want to be found

In my humble opinion, I feel Elizabeth is dead by 1851. How she comes to be named a mother in 1853 is an enigma??  Unless Hannah was born much earlier, and her mother died shortly afterwards and Hannah was not registered with the church till much later and was therefore mistaken about her true age all her life. But why would her father do that? And why not give her true d.o.b? And why wait till six months after you've remarried?
Sorry I'm going off at a tangent.
I had a read at your Neil McLaughlin thread . My Goodness your head must be spinning! The Prestons needed a lesson in record keeping.
Looby