Thomas A. Young, Aberdeen 1851

[mairepad]

Hello, thanks for the questions, they light the way to truth. I have often wondered whether Thomas was born in England. In addition to the 1870 Census, I have found his naturalization papers which give his nationality as English. So the watch could mean other than what the family always assumed. The marriage certificate of his son could be an error. His son, BTW was 12 when his father died. I have been trying to find some evidence of the frequency with which Scots identified as English on certain documents in the US.  In the meantime, I should mention that his family professed to having Scottish roots and customs. The son married a woman with Scottish heritage, indeed they emigrated from Glasgow prior to her birth in New Jersey. So I am not sure where the sense of being Scottish came from, Thomas, his son or his daughter-in-law. I have not yet found a marriage certificate for Thomas and Susan.
BTW, on the topic of watches, I came across an article some time ago about silver pocket watches, their cost in the mid-19th century and the idea, which I had never considered, that young working men of modest means would spend money to obtain a nice watch, along with a good suit of clothes, even if it seemed beyond their means. Maybe that was it with Thomas, just looking to impress the girls. Why Aberdeen? I don't know yet, but it would seem to be more than a "passing through" inscription.
I hope to have some luck today at the NYC Municipal Archives looking for the marriage certificate.
Thanks for your reply.

[loobylooayr]

Hi again,

I think the Thomas Young , agricultural student born London at Cruden Aberdeenshire on the Scottish 1851 Census - as found by Monica- is interesting.
He brings the Aberdeen connection and the English connection together , but how do you prove it
I think you are also correct to question the possibility of a Scottish person identifying themselves as English. Or more likely someone else misidentifying Scotland as being part of England. That still can happen today
I found this today, you may already have found this yourself - https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/MN87-96X
I wondered if this was Thomas and Susana's youngest, maybe in some sort of children's home?
Note the father's birthplace- England.
I couldn't find Alexander or his brother Charles on the 1880 Census.
And lastly about the watch...does it have any makers mark or date mark on it which could help you discover where it was made (think I've been watching too many Antique Roadshows ).

Looby

[mairepad]

Hello again,
Little Susannah Elizabeth was indeed in an orphanage, St. Mary's in Newark. Her brothers Alexander and Charles were there as well. I didn't know any of that until a few months ago. My mother had often mentioned an Aunt Susie that my grandfather visited, but my mother never met her, or was even sure who she was. I have no idea what happened to Susie.
One reason I lean towards a certain Thomas Young born in Aberdeen is that that the parents of that Thomas were Alexander and Elizabeth. Thomas named his 1st son Alexander and his only daughter Susannah Elizabeth. I know that is not proof, but I have a feeling about it.
The watch has marks, but nothing to make it a clue to anything.
Thomas, BTW was working in a sugar refinery when he was living in Jersey City, and appeared to have been doing the same in NYC. His naturalization papers had the same address as a small refinery, and  the bank account gave an address of residence across the street from that refinery.
I have looked at the agricultural student, and don't recall why, but dismissed him. Maybe I should look at him afresh.
Thanks for your input.

[loobylooayr]

Hi Mairepad,
What a shame, those 3 children in an orphanage .

Looking at the Thomas and Alexander Young in Aberdeen on the 1841 -
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XY65-RS6
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XY65-2P8
I take it this will be the two boys. Looks like they also had a brother William Reid Young christened 16 Sept 1832 and a sister Jane christened 30 Sep 1826.
There is also an Alexr Young Merchant Seaman records https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KC39-7D4  I don't know if An**stry or Find My P**t will have those records available to view. There is a similar record for a Thomas Young https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KC33-27T     and a Chelsea Pensioner's record -
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/V5C9-YPZ

Sorry that's a lot of links and I realise you may well have them already. I can understand your leaning towards this Thomas born in Aberdeenshire , and I think you have to find out if you can what happened to him to try and join up the dots between him and Thomas in New Jersey.

Good luck,
Looby

[mairepad]

Thanks you for the reply. I had seen the 1841 census, and knew of William Reid Young and Jane. I have baptismal records for Thomas and Alexander, and the marriage certificate for the parents, but nothing yet for William and Jane.
I did not have the merchant navy service record for Alexander, or the pensioners record, so special thanks for those. That fits with Alexander having been a ship's carpenters apprentice in the earlier census.

If they, in fact are my family, I am intrigued by Alexander the father, who, I think appears in several Aberdeen  directories as a ship's master, then one year, just isn't there anymore. Can't find out what happened to him. Or maybe I'm just missing things.

Just a lot of mysteries and some very big Ifs. Musn't get too far ahead of myself. They may not be mine after all.

As a side note, let me say that Roman Catholic sacramental records in New York City are not easy to obtain. That is where I would expect to find a record of the marriage of Thomas and Susan, which might answer some questions,  and baptisms of their children. Very difficult. The marriage is not registered with the city. 

Anyway, big thanks for your input.

[MonicaL]

Hi All

Just one note to also keep in mind. RC records don't normally appear on Family Search. Pre 1855, just occasionally, an over zealous clerk for the established Church of Scotland (Presbyterian) would include all events taking place in his parish, including details for other denominations but this was not common across the board.

Apart from the fact that there are too many records pointing to an English birth for Thomas, if he was born RC, then not really expecting to find his family or his birth on Family Search. Mariepad, Scottish RC records from the actual registers that are available can be searched and viewed on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk - not sure this is relevant if he actually was born in England though.

One other thing to consider too may be that whilst Thomas may have been born in England, parents could have been Scottish. Parents may have been living or simply visiting at the time of his birth and may have returned to Scotland after.

Still all guesses really....

Where possible, you need always at least one key piece of info really to have more confidence with what you are finding. Assuming they did marry in the US, their marriage cert may likely be that. Have you made enquiries as to what information was included on these NYC RC parish marriage entries at that time?

Have you made any inroads on Susan Flannigan?

Monica 

[mairepad]

I am not looking for Thomas in RC registers, just hoping to find his marriage certificate or the baptisms of his children.
Susan came to the US in 1849 when she was @ 11, (courtesy of Emigrant Savings Bank records), so I'm rather certain that they met and married in the US, probably NYC. Assuming they married. Their bank account is in her name as his wife.
Scotlandspeople has come through for other family in Glasgow, but until I make the right connection I'm not confident of anything related to the Youngs.
The RC marriage records in NYC might be of no use, (they give little info, I am told) but absent a civil registration entry it's all I have left to hope for.
Thanks for the reply.

[mairepad]

At last I discovered the marriage records for Thomas and Susan. I wish I had known earlier that the sacramental records for St. Peter's RC Church in Manhattan are available at the NY Public Library. The church office wants something like $50 to search, and as I had no idea where they were married I didn't want to spend the money. Anyway, in Februray 1862 they were married at St. Peter's. Two sons and two daughters were baptized there. (the last daughter, Susie was born in NJ. I had never known about the two girls born in NYC, as they never appear in the NJ census in 1870 or anyplace else. I suppose they died in NJ, but I can find no death records to verify that assumption.
Bit by bit the story is coming together, but still no hint of where Thomas was from. He was married in an RC church, with no record of a dispensation for his being non-Catholic, and I see no record of his converting, so I am guessing that he was born Roman Catholic, which might knock a few contenders out of the box.