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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: mg on Saturday 08 May 10 16:33 BST (UK)
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Hi All
I was wondering if anyone could help me, please?
I am looking for James William Ogden. I have his marriage certifcate. He got married in the parish of Camden Town Middlesex in 1884 to Susan Barginall. He was a Widower. His father's name was William.
I also have his death certificate from 1893, aged 54 years in Northampton. Informant was Susan Ogden, widow of the deceased.
I cannot find him on any census returns at all!
I can't find a birth for him either.
I've recently received two birth certificates, which I had thought could be him, but the father on both of them is called James.
If someone could help me, as to what & where to go from here, I would very much appreciate it, thanks,
Mary
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There is one James Ogdens born c 1839 on the 1851 & 1861 census' with father William and two on 1871.
Both James' were born in Yorkshire.
I take it that as you have never found James on a census, you don't know where he was born?
Did it have William's occupation on the marriage certificate?
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Hi
I was thinking he was either born in Middlesex (marriage took place there)
or Northampton (death there).
I found his wife and family in the 1891 census, living in Northampton, but no sign of him.
His father's occupation on the marriage cert is Shoemaker, deceased.
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Neither of the Williams are shoemakers.
Northampton does seem the logical place of birth to me, as it was the shoe factory town... not anymore though.
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Ok, thanks for that. I was in touch with someone researching the surname, but she didn't seem to think that my William was the same one she had, who was from Chapel Brampton.
I think I will take a chance and order the birth cert for the James Ogden, born in Northampton.
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I cannot find Susan Ogden on the 1891 in Northants
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Ah! I found her in 1901 as niece to Martha Hand
Uum. Maybe not, it says she is single
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I do appologise, it was the 1901 census i found them on, not 1891
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Got her in 1901 with Arthur & Clara.
Where are they in 1891???
This is very strange!!
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That's right, in 1901 they were living in Spring Lane Northampton, no James though?
I haven't been able to find them in 1891 at all, Clara born in 1891 Northampton, Arthur & Susan were both born in London.
It is very strange indeed!
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I've tried searching for clara & Arthur with no surname, with parents James & Susan...no luck. Maybe James went by his second name.
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That's a possibility, yes.
I do know that Arthur's son was named William John, but was known locally as John, so....you could well be right.
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James wouldn't be on the 1901, he had died by then, but I still can't find them in 1891.
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Hi
Susan's age seems to move about it.
20th March 1860 St George in the East born 29th March 1854
Susan Barginal parehts Joseph and Elizabeth, 8 James' Place, father's occupation waterman
On her marriage in 21st September 1884 she was a 39 year old spinster - father Joseph deceased waterman
1901 census in St Sepulchre Northampton a widow aged 43 born Shoul? London
On that census she has two children
Arthur born Shoul? London aged 16 and Clara aged 10 born Northampton
Clara was probably born after the 1891 census
Births Sep 1891 Ogden Clara Elizabeth Northampton 3b 70
Difficult to tell whether from that census whether Arthur was the son of James and his first wife, or Susan's son.
James William's father William was a shoemaker as stated on his marriage.
It is important to give the full information from the marriage. It makes the search a lot easier.
On James William's marriage he states his occupation as paviour - 'Lays paving stones etc.' and that he was a widower
The 1881 census is searchable by occupation
1881 census RG11 214 folio 123
32 Grafton Terrace St Pancras
William J. Ogden 43 Head Married Paviour Clainground? Huntingdon
Sophia Ogden 40 Wife Married Gt Barton, Suffolk
Ann M. Ogden 17 Daughter Machinist March, Cambridgeshire
James H. Ogden 14 Son Paviour Kentish Town Middlesex
Barnaby R. Ogden 6 Son Kentish Town Middlesex
William L. Ogden 2 Son Kentish Town Middlesex
Births Jun 1878 OGDEN William Leo Pancras 1b 211
Deaths Dec 1883 Ogden Sophia 43 N. Witchford 3b 353
Marriages Sep 1860
Ogden William N Witchford 3b 851
Sargent Sophia N. Witchford 3b 851
Births Mar 1864
OGDEN Ann Maria N Witchford 3b 622
1871 census RG10 206 folio 46
9 North Western Terrace Oval Road Pancras
William Ogden 32 Head Married Railway labourer Peterbro Northampton
Sophia Ogden 30 Wife Married Gt Barton Suffolk
Frances M Ogden 9 Daughter March Cambridge
Annie M Ogden 7 Daughter March Cambridge
James H Ogden 4 Son Pancras Middlesex
Regards
Valda
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There you are...he did go by the name of William, so Sophia was his first wife.
I'd like to say I was pipped to the post, as I was about to ask James's occupation.......
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Hi
1861 census RG9 1044 folio 111
Binnimoor March Cambridgeshire
William Ogden 22 Head Married Ag lab Stanground Hunts
Sophia Ogden 20 Wife Married Bury St Edmunds Suffolk
St Pancras Old Church 15th October 1869 born 1st October
William Ogden parents William and Sophia, Workhouse, father's occupation labourer
1851 census HO107 17?5 folio 715
Hurst Lane March Cambridgeshire
John Hopkin 41 Head Unmarried Ag lab March Cambs
Martha Ogden 31 Servant Widow Standground Hunts
William Ogden 12 Son Stanground Hunts
Richard Ogden 11 Stanground Hunts
James Ogden 7 Months March Cambs
Regards
Valda
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Hi
I have Arthur's birth cert, which states he was born 28th July 1885 at 7 Caroline Street Camden Town, father-James Ogden, mother Susan Ogden, formerly Bargneill, father's occupation Pavior.
Sorry, I didn't realise that you could search the 1881 census by occupation.
Thank you,
Mary
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Hi
That really is why it is important to give full information because other Rootschatters may know more about what records and what search features are around. If you'd known yourself you could search the 1881 census on occupation you would probably have found him. That's the beauty of Rootschat it gives you access to lots of people and all their different areas of expertise.
There doesn't appear to be a birth registration for William
Births Mar 1840
Ogden Richard Peterbro' 15 347
It might be worth obtaining his brother Richard's birth certificate to see who his parents were (mother's maiden name). If William's father died young, or his mother wasn't married, he may simply have given his father the same name as himself on his marriage.
Births Sep 1850
Ogden James Henry N Witchford 14 147
Marriages Mar 1854
Hopkin John N Witchford 3b 803
OGDEN Martha Frances N. Witchford 3b 803
1861 census RG9 1044 folio 81
Whittle End March Cambridgeshire
John Hopkin 51 Head Married Ag lab March Cambs
Marathy Hopkin 40 Wife Married ? Northamptonshire
James Hopkin 10 Son March Cambs
Noy easy to spot the Ogdens on the 1841 census.
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda
Thank you so much for your help, it's very much appreciated.
I think I will send for Richard's birth cert., see what I can find out from that.
Some of the 1841/1851 census are so faint, you can barely make out what they say.
Regards,
Mary
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Hi Mary
I came across the William James Ogden string while I was thinking about ancestors and should have been doing something else. He was my great-grandfather, through William Leo, ie his first marriage. Can't write mor now but will be in touch later.
Trevor
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Hi Trevor
Look forward to hearing from you later.
Mary :)
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Dear Mary
The first thing I have to say is that I have not done much in finding ancestors and am pretty ignorant about it, but can add a bit to your info. My interest was mainly to reconstruct something of my grandfather’s story (William Leo Ogden’s). He was killed in WWI in 1915, when my father was 3, and his wife died in 1949, and my father died in 1963, so there is little direct family contact. There was however a family tradition that WL’s mother had died, his father had married again, WL was turned out and went to the Gordon Boys School at Bagshot and later joined the army.
Surprisingly, in essence the story seems to be true. From what is now Gordon’s School, I got WL’s admission record and army information.
The admission record is dated 5 Dec 1892. His age is reported as 14, which agrees with his birth record (see below). It says that WL’s father is still alive and his mother dead. WL’s father is stated to be William Ogden, occupation pavier (“wages not stated”), and his address as 8 Jubilee Terrace, Landudno. This address is somewhat surprising in view of your info that Clara Elizabeth was born in Northampton in Sept 1891 and that William James died there in 1893.
The admission record gives the following as WL’s siblings. No addresses are given for them.
Annie Ogden, aged 20, dressmaker. According to the 1881 census info she should have been about 28.
Barnaby Ogden, aged 15, earning 10 shillings a week as a pavier. According to the 1881 census info he should have been about 17.
Fanny Beesley is stated to be a married sister, no age given – she is presumably not seen as a possible source of support for WL. It seems likely that this was Frances M (1871 census), who by 1892 would have been about 30.
There is no mention of Susan or her children, but that is not surprising, because the interest in wages implies I think that the purpose of this info is to establish that WL is really a poor orphan and qualified to enter the Gordon Boy’s Home, so step-mothers presumably didn’t count. No mention of James H, either, who from the 1881 census would have been about 25 by 1892, but perhaps he had died between 1881 and then.
Why was William James in Llandudno in Dec 1892 if Susan was in Northampton? Being a pavier was presumably an itinerant occupation and perhaps he was there temporarily for work. You said Clara was born in Northampton in Sept 1891, but that only tells us where Susan was – maybe WJ was already in Llandudno and only visiting Northampton sometimes (and to die in 1893). But does this help explain why you can’t find them in the 1891 census?
There are a couple of points of interest about WL’s birth. His birth certificate gives his date of birth as 28 May 1878, but his Gordon Boys admission record says that he was born 12 May 1878. Presumably he knew when his birthday was. The birth was registered by Sophia on 27 June. I wonder perhaps whether births had to be registered within a month and she was late and therefore mis-stated the date of birth. The birth place is said to 82 Castle Rd, Kentish Town. Sophia’s address at registration is 7 Lismore Gardens, Kentish Town.
Returning to the admission record, WL was admitted from “Boy’s Farm Home, Standon Bridge” (Staffordshire). This was an orphanage run by the Church of England Waifs and Strays (now the Children’s Society). The Gordon Boys admission record does not say how long he had been there, but it does say that he was baptized at Standon, Eccleshall, date not given. Perhaps the home had him baptized locally when he arrived, but he might have been any age.
I don’t expect that WL is in your main line of interest, but briefly his subsequent history is as follows. He was only at the Gordon Boys Home 15 months, entering the army in April 1894 at the age of 15 years and 11 months. He was in the army for about 12 years, left and married a girl three years his senior in 1907. They had two surviving sons, one of which was my father, Arthur George. He went back in the army at the start of the war and was killed at Festubert, 15 May 1915, just after his 37th birthday.
You mention in your posting of 8 May 10, at 1623, that you have heard from someone who has William at Chapel Brampton. This is close to Northampton. Which William did you think this could be, William James or his father?
I am of course very interested in any other info you can give. Although family tradition said that WJ had married again, I had no idea when or to whom, or whether there were any half-siblings, until I read this string.
I tried to attach a jpg of the admssion record, but it is too big. I will try to reduce it.
Best wishes
Trevor Ogden (middle name Leo!)
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Here is William Leo's gordon Boys admission form
Trevor
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Hi Trevor,
Thamk you so much for all of that information, really appreciate it.
It was facinating to see the Administration form for William & his siblings.
My side of the Ogden family is certainly turning out to be a confusing one. I still need to send off for Richard's birth cert., maybe more can be gleened from that.
You may well be right about William/James's profession taking him far and wide.
It's amazing how life seems to sometimes repeat itself. Two of my sisters, my brother and myself were all placed into care as children.
Well, if I find out anymore, I will let you know,
Thanks again,
Mary :)
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OK, I have written to the Childrens Society and asked for a summary of WL's file, which is all they will supply to a relative, and they say it may takes some months. I will let you know what the outcome is, esp if it sheds light on the rest of the family.
What's your connection? Are you descended from James William and Susan?
I will let you know if I get any more info.
Trevor
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Hi Trevor
That would be great if you could get hold of WL's file.
Yes I am a decendent of James William and Susan, they were my 4x Great Grandparents. It would be great to find out more about the Ogden family, as I didn't have any contact with my father. I only saw him a couple of times, once when my eldest sister got married, then just before he died.
Look forward to hearing of anything you may find out.
Mary :)
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Does that mean great-great-great-great grandparents? JW and Sophie are only my great grandparents. I suppose that means we are second half-cousins three times removed!
I will keep you in touch with any info I get
Trevor
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I have now had further information from The Children's Society Records and Archives Centre, about William Leo Ogden, son of James William, and stepson of Susan.
To quote the letter:
'The application for William to be received into the care of the Waifs and Strays Society (as the Children's Society was formerly known) was made by Miss Edith Miles, the Honorary Secretary of the Leicester Home for Boys. On 5 December 1890 she wrote to the Secretary of the Waifs and Strays Society:
"A boy named William Ogden was brought to the Leicester Homes by Mr Morris, a member of the Local Committee, on November 12th. Mr Morris had found the boy in a low lodging house in Leicester. The boy stated that his mother died in a lodging house at Wellingborough about three months ago and that his father died about ten months ago.
The boy was employed for about a fortnight in Hinchley*, he said (and this was found to be true) by a travelling photographer who told him to come to his shop in Leicester, but when he reached there he was fold he was not wanted.
Enquiry was made through the police at Welling borough and it was found that the boy had lived there in lodging houses, once or twice during the last six months and he got his living by running errands, but it was untrue that his mother died in a lodging house at Welling borough.
The boy admitted that his father was alive and that his stepmother lived at Northampton. The Northampton police were communicated with, and letters from them are enclosed. The Matron of the Boys' Home feels that the boy is not really bad and that he has been cruelly treated by his stepmother and that has been the cause of his leaving his father's house. She is sure with proper management he would turn out a very good boy.
We feel quite certain the boy will not return to his father if he is sent, in consequence of his step¬mother's ill-treatment; if possible we should very much like to keep the boy and I shall be much obliged if you will tell me if the Executive Committee would be likely to entertain the case. If you think they would, I will at once get an application form filled up as far as possible."
Edith Miles enclosed two letters from the Chief Constable for the Borough of Northampton. The first, dated 21 November 1890 stated: "I have to inform you that enquiries have been made respecting this boy's statement and it is found that his father, William Ogden, left here on the 17th instant with his employer to do some paving in Wales, but his wife (the boy's stepmother) has not been informed of his address at present. She states that she was married to Ogden about seven years ago, at Praed St. Church, Camden Town, London. The boy has run away from home several times and on the 3rd September last was sent home from Dr. Barnardo's home in London, he had then been away about five weeks ... His friends are too poor to pay his fare to Northampton but will give him a home if he is sent."
The second letter from the Chief Constable is dated 28 November 1890: "I have to inform you that this boy's father and stepmother are now residing at 8 Jubilee Terrace, L1andudno, North Wales. Nothing is known against them but they are in poor circumstances ... The boy was in some workhouse in London about twelve months ago ... His stepmother does not attend to him as perhaps she ought." '
*Should be Hinckley, I think.
This is not very creditable to stepmother Susan, I'm afraid, but we do not have her side of it. The application (1890) mentioned other children of James William and his first wife Sophia:
Barnaby Ogden, address Clerkenwell, age 15, earning 10 shillings weekly;
Annie Ogden, Hammersmith, 20, rugmaker;
Frances Beasley, Brixton, age not given, married.
This is very helpful to me and I will write and thank the Children's Society. It does give a picture of people going out of their way to rescue and help this waif - a rather different picture of the one often painted of children's homes. The Children's Society only supplies copies of the documents to the original people they concern.
Trevor
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Hi
Thank you for the detail Trevor - very interesting account from the Waifs and Strays Society records
Regards
Valda
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Wow!, Thanks very much Trevor,
The letter certainly makes interesting reading and does answer some of my questions about the family, (it also throws up a few more questions too).
It's really good to know that there were people out there trying their best to help this poor boy.
Mary :)