Author Topic: Dunbar of Leuchold 1700's-1800's  (Read 5018 times)

Offline CasparV

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Dunbar of Leuchold 1700's-1800's
« on: Tuesday 15 July 14 22:35 BST (UK) »
Can anyone help me, please, to trace the ancestry of George Dunbar of Leuchold in Linlithgowshire in Scotland?

I think that he married Helen Fleming in Edinburgh in 1733 (I think she was daughter of John Fleming/Fleeming and Alison Broun/Brown, and also sister to Janet Fleming - I would be very interested on more on them also, please). They had a son called John and 3 daughters: Helen, Alison and Elizabeth. They may also have had sons called Andrew & George according to the IGI.

George Dunbar and his wife died in 1768. Their daughter Alison pre-decesased them. Their son, John, died shortly after them in the same year. Their daughter, Helen, married Charles Hope-Weir as his 3rd wife in 1766.

David Dunbar (apparently before George and so perhaps his father) held Leuchold and also had a house in Edinburgh in Dunbar's Close. David Dunbar was a writer in Edinburgh and his wife was apparently Anna Hutchinson. Anna Hutchinson was relict (widow) of David Dunbar in 1720 and/or 1725. According to the IGI a David Dunbar (son of Hew Dunbar) married Anna Hutchesone in 1660 in Edinburgh. The same source gives a David Dunbar christened 6/8/1612 in Edinburgh as son of Hew Dunbar and Helene Johnestoun.

Now all of the above paragraph may be connected, or it may be a red herring, but I do hope that someone reading this may be able to guide me to firmer ground, please.

I have also found a note that Dunbar's Close, Lawnmarket, was named after Andrew Dunbar, a glover, who also owned a tenement there in the early 18th century.

Many thanks,
Caspar
Steavens of Bermondsey & Kent

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Dunbar of Leuchold 1700's-1800's
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 16 July 14 08:58 BST (UK) »
Have you viewed the originals of all those baptisms and marriages at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk?
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline CasparV

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Re: Dunbar of Leuchold 1700's-1800's
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 16 July 14 09:21 BST (UK) »
Thank you for that suggestion. I have not used that site and have no subscription to it. What could there be that would be different to the IGI records?

Many thanks,
Caspar
Steavens of Bermondsey & Kent

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Dunbar of Leuchold 1700s-1800s
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 16 July 14 09:55 BST (UK) »
Thank you for that suggestion. I have not used that site and have no subscription to it. What could there be that would be different to the IGI records?

The IGI is the International Genealogical Index. It contains no original records at all. It is an absolutely unbeatable, brilliant, wonderful finding aid, but it is neither 100% comprehensive nor, it has to be said, 100% accurate and reliable.

Some of the information in the IGI is taken directly from the original records as part of an indexing programme. There is also user contributed information which can be anything from duplication of the indexed information to complete fantasy (at one time you could find there supposed baptism details of the Norse gods in Valhalla!).

Scotland's People has downloadable digital images of the original documents from which some of the indexed listings in the IGI were taken. It's a pay-per-view site, not a subscription site, but modestly priced. Original documents often contain details not included in the listings in the IGI. For example, baptism records may state the parents' address, the father's occupation and the names of witnesses to the baptism. Scotland's People is an absolute must for anyone who is serious about researching their Scottish family.

You can get some (but not all) of the same information as Scotland's People has by visiting a library that has the relevant parish registers on microfilm, or a LDS Church Family History Centre that can arrange to borrow a microfilm for you.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.


Online GR2

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Re: Dunbar of Leuchold 1700's-1800's
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 16 July 14 09:59 BST (UK) »
More generally, there are lots of sources available for Edinburgh. It might help if you could tell us the oldest members of this family which you have definitely traced as ancestors.

Offline CasparV

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Re: Dunbar of Leuchold 1700's-1800's
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 16 July 14 14:06 BST (UK) »
Thank you to Forfarian for explaining more about Scotland' s People as it really helps to understand whether it is worth going further with that.

In reply to GR2 - I have already posted all of the information that I have managed to gather, which is frustratingly little. My starting point was Helen Dunbar who married Charles Hope-Weir and then I have found snippets elsewhere that have managed to weave the rest. One of my key sources has been a case in "The Decisions of the Court of Sessions" dated 31st July 1771 in which it says:

"Helen Fleming, in the year 1754, with consent of George Dunbar her husband, disponed the lands of Polealk and Granges to John Dunbar her son; reserving her own liferent, and under the burden of certain provisions to her three daughters, Alison, Elizabeth, and Helen. Helen Fleming and her husband died in 1768. John the son had been engaged in trade abroad, and had contracted a large debt to John Watson of London, to which Edward Tyson came to have right as executor to Watson's children. John survived his parents but a few months. The fee of the above lands opened to his two sisters Elizabeth and Helen, to whom also Alison's provision had accresced by her pre-deceasing her mother."

There then follows 4 pages of legal argument with little to help the genealogist.

Now the above shows the members of the family, but does not tell us if George Dunbar and Helen Fleming had any others sons (as suggested by the IGI), so I simply cannot tell you who was the eldest. It may be that John was the oldest surviving son, or it may just be that he was the only son with interests in the lands mentioned.

Incidentally the IGI records that George Dunbar and Helen Fleming were married in Edinburgh in 1733 and that they had a son called Andrew in 1734, a daughter called Alison in 1737, and a son called George in 1745, but no other children are listed there.

Does that help any?
Caspar
Steavens of Bermondsey & Kent

Online GR2

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Re: Dunbar of Leuchold 1700's-1800's
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 16 July 14 16:37 BST (UK) »
I have had a look at the catalogue of the National Archives of Scotland, and see an instrument of sasine in favour of Andrew Dunbar of Leuchold as heir to the deceased John Dunbar of Leuchold, furrier, burgess of Edinburgh, his father, dated 22-4-1718.

Again, looking at the Burgess Roll of Edinburgh on another site, I see no references to any John Dunbar as a furrier, but there is a John Dunbar, skinner, made burgess by right of his wife, Jean, daughter to Edward Carmichael 17-2-1647 and made Guildbrother 30-11-1659. A John Dunbar, skinner, is made burgess 18-4-1694 by right of his father, John Dunbar, skinner.

You will probably find out much more by consulting the register of sasines, the register of the Great Seal, and the protocol books etc.

Offline CasparV

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Re: Dunbar of Leuchold 1700's-1800's
« Reply #7 on: Friday 18 July 14 22:01 BST (UK) »
Thanks to GR2's posting I have managed to find a bit more. I see in the National Archives for Scotland that:

"Instrument of cognition and sasine in favour of Andrew Dunbar of Leuchold, as heir of deceased John Dunbar of Leuchold, furrier, burgess of Edinburgh, his father, in a tenement on the north side of the High Street, at the foot of Ireland's Close. Registered fifth protocol book of George Home, 22 April 1718."

Now I have then found online a volume called "NOTES ON THE NAMES OF THE CLOSES AND WYNDS OF OLD EDINBURGH" in which there is a section on Dunbar's Close which reads:

"Dunbar's Close [Edgar. Ainslie. Kirkwood]. Ireland's Close. Baile Brown's Close. Penston's Close.

The name is guessingly derived by Chambers [7] from Cromwell's victory at Dunbar in 1650, the error arising probably from the fact that some of his Ironsides lodged in the Rose and Thistle Inn there. [8] It is really derived from Andrew Dunbar of Leuchold, who owned a tenement in the close, from the flat lead roof of which [9] Cromwell is said to have watched the Firth of Forth, and his fleet there. [7]

The father of Andrew Dunbar was named George, a glover by trade, and his son George was 3rd bailie in 1737. [10] John Dunbar, glover, and his spouse acquired the property from John Penstoun, merchant. [11]

Notes
[7] Chambers, i. 178.
[8] Wilson, ii. 6.
[9] Prot. J. W. 3, 17/1/1753
[10] Prot. W. F. 6, 9/1/1754
[11] Prot. J. W. 3, 17/1/1753"

In the same volume the entry for Ireland's Close says: "Ireland's, now Dunbar's Close. There was a tenement of land on the north side of the Landmercat, on the west side of Ireland's Close, bounded by the tenement of the heirs of John Dunbar on the north."

Now I sense an error in the above in that I rather suspect that Andrew was son of John (as in the National Archgives reference), rather than of George, although George does seem to fit well as the son if it is then he who married Helen Fleming in 1733, as in my earlier postings.

I would not rely on the IGI, but it does contain some suggestive matches in Andrew Dunbar, son of John, married to Margaret Gilchrist in 1706 in Edinburgh and then they had a son called George in 1707, which would fit.

Returning to Forfarian's suggestion that I try looking at Scotland's People, I have paid my £7 and looked at a record for Dunbar of Leuchold which says:

"December 17 1697
George oldest e.s. to the Laird of Leuchold, baptised in his owne house (being in time of great storms) by Mr. Miller Minister of Kirkliston; Witnesses, The Laird of Dundass (the childs grandfather, Jo: Stewart of Newhalles (?)" [that last word "Newhalles" is unclear, so I may have it wrong and likewise the initials e.s. at the beginning (which might be p.s.)]

Sadly the above does not tell us the name of the father in this case. The above George might be the one that I seek (who married Helen Fleming in 1733), but that would mean the IGI find mentioned above (with George batpised 1707) would then become a red herring.

Now according to the IGI Andrew Dunbar married Elizabeth Dundas in Edinburgh 21/8/1688 and they probably had the following children

Margaret baptised 12/2/1693 at Dalmeny
Elizabeth baptised in 9/2/1700 at Dalmeny
John baptised 27/1/1704 at Dalmeny
Barbara baptised 10/10/1705 at Dalmeny
Andrew baptised 30/4/1711 at Dalmeny

Dalmeny is one mile from Leuchold, which is highly promising.

I can find no match in the pedigree of Dundas of Dundas for an Elizabeth marrying to a Dunbar.

HOWEVER the extract from Scotland's People is transcribed from a manuscript copy and it is unclear if the grandfather is Dundas or Stewart - anyone care to comment on this, please?

The IGI lists a George Dunbar baptised at Dalmeny 17/12/1697 with a father called Dunbar and a mother called Stewart, but no christian names given.

So to come back to GR2's earlier question, it does rather look as if Andrew was son and heir of John and that George was son and heir of Andrew. George appears to have had a son called John, but may also have had sons called Andrew and George (see my ealier posting), all of which sons' names are consistent with the family relationships that appear to be emerging.

I wonder if this new information suggests anything to you, please?

It is clear that a visit to Scotland to research more on the spot would be of benefit, but I struggle to do so and hence am seeking wisdom via the wonders of the Internet.

Many thanks,
Caspar
Steavens of Bermondsey & Kent