Who Appeared in Visitations? *COMPLETED*

[supermoussi]

We are assuming that you are referring to English (or possibly Welsh) heraldry, not that of Scotland or Ireland.

Correct.

[supermoussi]

Every landowning family in England was, in the past, eligible to bear arms, not all appear in the Visitations.

Even if they were not it does not prove anything, they may for instance been out of the county when the herald held his Visitation. They may have been born after the last visitation or have died before a Visitation.

Are your sure? If so, then say there was a Yorkshire knight called Sir Walter Marmaduke who came into land in Norfolk through marriage in the 1400s. He has 3 sons called Robert, Richard & Henry with Robert being the eldest. Robert in turn has a single daughter, Isabel, who marries Joseph Montague. Sir Marmadukes lands are passed down through his eldest son Robert and then to Isabel & Joseph Montague.

By the time of the Visitations the descendants of Isabel & Joseph Montague are listed along with their pedigree up to Sir Walter Marmaduke and they still hold the same land he passed on down to them.

There are other Marmadukes in the same area at the time of Visitation but they do not appear in it. Could these unlisted Marmadukes be descendants of Sir Walter's youngest sons, Richard & Henry or does the fact that Sir Marmadukes land went to a female descendant mean that there weren't any direct male descendants to inherit the land?

N.B. this is an example I made up off the top of my head so please don't go looking up the Marmadukes or Montagues in Burkes! 

[KGarrad]

Could these unlisted Marmadukes be descendants of Sir Walter's youngest sons, Richard & Henry or does the fact that Sir Marmadukes land went to a female descendant mean that there weren't any direct male descendants to inherit the land?

You would need the will to be certain, but inheritance always goes to the male lines?
Any exceptional circumstances would be mentioned in the will.

[Guy Etchells]

Under the rule of primogeniture the oldest son would inherit the estate of his parents if there was no male heir the daughters would inherit equally.

In the example you give the younger sons Richard and Henry miss out because their elder brother inherits the land, which then becomes his.
His children then have the right to inherit above the rights of Roberts brothers.

The fact that Robert’s daughter inherits shows Robert had no live sons when he died.
Cheers
Guy

[MaecW]

I'm finding this thread rather confusing.
Both the original question and the restated one refer to Heraldic Visitations and Coats of Arms, but somehow we are now discussing land ownership. The two subjects are related but not the same.

To pick up on supermoussi's example :    "Could these unlisted Marmadukes be descendants of Sir Walter's youngest sons, Richard & Henry or does the fact that Sir (Robert) Marmaduke's land went to a female descendant mean that there weren't any direct male descendants to inherit the land?"
Correct that there are no direct male descendants.Sir Robert Marmaduke had brothers but not sons.
His land has gone to his daughter who, as heiress, carries it with her to the Montagues. Richard and Henry have no claim to it.

With regard to arms, Sir Walter's original Arms are carried through to his grand-daughter and, after her marriage, may appear "impaled" with her husband's. Later Montagues may "quarter" the two arms to recognize the lineage.
Richard and Henry, being the sons of an "armiger" have the right each to their own arms. Often these will be Sir Walter's arms differenced in some way e.g.: by changing a field or a colour or adding a charge . ( Note that this is not the same as Cadency, which is a separate issue.) Alternatively, they may choose to adopt (assume) new arms for themselves.

By the time of the Visitations, many generations later, the descendants of Richard and Henry may have slipped so far down the social tree as to no longer be considered of appropriate status, and may well not be aware of their family background.   
There is also the possibility of illegitimate descent, where the father has recognised the child as his and given him his surname, but no legal status inside the family.

Maec

[supermoussi]

By the time of the Visitations, many generations later, the descendants of Richard and Henry may have slipped so far down the social tree as to no longer be considered of appropriate status, and may well not be aware of their family background.   

Ok, but surely where landholdings were concerned the pedigree would have had to be documented by some representative of the King as how would they know who inherits the land in the event of the eldest line (in the above case the Montagues) dying out? Wouldn't the Sheriffs/Heralds have to go and find living descendants of Sir Walter Marmaduke's two youngest sons, Richard & Henry?

[KGarrad]

So, are we discussing inheritance or pedigrees?

In the case of inheritance, wills were very important, and would have been proved at an Ecclesiastical Court.

Which court depends on where they lived, and how "important" they were.

The National Archives explains this here:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/research-guides/wills-and-probate-records.htm

[MaecW]

Supermoussi,

I don't pretend to be an expert in medieval property law but I suspect that in cases such as that proposed by you, where the Montagues died out with no legal heirs (i.e. no legitimate progeny or Wills, as mentioned by KGarrad), the estate would have been quickly seized on behalf of the Crown, and either resold or gifted to a new owner. Any Marmadukes thinking they had a claim could appeal to the King or, after the mid 1300s, to the Court of Chancery but this could be very expensive and, given the distance of their relationship from the Montagues, not very likely to succeed.
Certainly no great effort would be made to find distant relatives of the deceased.

Indeed, I understand that, even these days, relatives further removed than second cousins are barred from claiming intestate monies.

I hope this helps.

Maec

[Guy Etchells]

Ok, but surely where landholdings were concerned the pedigree would have had to be documented by some representative of the King as how would they know who inherits the land in the event of the eldest line (in the above case the Montagues) dying out? Wouldn't the Sheriffs/Heralds have to go and find living descendants of Sir Walter Marmaduke's two youngest sons, Richard & Henry?

No because land was devised by primogenture not gavelkind. Once the land was devised or inherited by Robert, Richard and Henry were out of the picture unless Robert had no issue (children).

The next inline would be Robert's sons in order of birth, failing that equally to Robert's daughters.
In the example given Robert had one daughter (Isabel).
Cheers
Guy