RootsChat.Com
Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Denbighshire => Topic started by: Pauls63 on Wednesday 02 December 09 22:08 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I'm trying to find out some information about the wife of an ancestor of mine. Her name was Anne and she was married to a Joshua Salusbury of Denbigh, later of Gyffylliog.
I have recently come across some information which suggests that she might actual be the same Anne Salesbury who married Ellis Powell in Clocaenog in 1679.
Firstly though, some background:
I have, I believe anyway, traced my direct line back to a Joshua Salusbury, a mercer in Denbigh, and his wife Lucy Myddelton.
I currently have no birth or death dates for either.
They had at least 4 sons, John, William (? - d.1727), Foulk (? - d.1716) and another Joshua (? - d.1719?), my ancestor, who was also a mercer.
This Joshua married, firstly, a Dorothy by which he had at least 3 sons - John, Thomas (b.1683 - ?) and Foulk (b.1685 - ?).
Dorothy died in 1687 and it appears that Joshua then married Anne.
According to the Denbigh PRs they had 6 sons :
Twins William and Hugh who were born in Nov 1703. Hugh I think died straight away and William a month later.
David (b.1704, Denbigh - d.1771, Llanynys) - my ancestor.
Owen (b.1706, Denbigh - d.1783, Ruthin)
Roger (b.1708, Denbigh - d.1708, Gyffylliog)
Thomas (b.1710, Denbigh - d.1785, Gyffylliog)
Joshua died, I believe, in 1719. He lived in Gyffylliog at the time but he wasn't buried there. I'm still trying to find out where he was buried.
Most of the information above I found in the Denbigh and Gyffylliog PRs, a book called 'Chirk Castle Accounts A.D 1666 - 1753' and various wills found at NLW or the National Archives including:
The will of Jane Merton (nee Myddelton), 1691, of Llandyrnog, Joshua's aunt. (National Archives)
The will of William Salusbury, 1727, Of Denbigh, mercer, Joshua's brother. (NLW)
The will of Foulk Salusbury, 1716, of Ystrad Cynon, Denbigh, Gent, Joshua's brother. (NLW)
So back to the link.
I have come across 2 pieces of information which might suggest that this Anne was in fact the same Anne Salesbury who married Ellis Powell.
1) An entry in 'Chirk Castle Accounts A.D 1666 - 1753, for November 1720 which talks of giving Richard Powell 3 pounds to pass onto his mother, the widow of Joshua Salusbury.
The entry stipulates that this is the same Joshua Salusbury of Denbigh who was a mercer and died in 1719.
2) There is a bond in Joshua's name (actually spelt Joshuah) on the NLW wills database for 1720 in Gyffylliog. This bond has the names and signatures of Richard Powell of Clocaenog and Anne Salusbury.
I know this is not concrete proof so does anyone have any more evidence?
Is there a marriage for them in the Clocanenog PR or anywhere else? I guess the marriage would have been between 1696 (when Ellis Powell died) and 1703.
It's quite possible that this is a completely different Anne Powell who also had a son called Richard, from Clocaenog, from a previous marriage.
However if this is true then it makes me wonder if there was a connection between the 2 branches before Joshua and Anne were married.
I have hit a brick wall with Joshua and Lucy and I haven't been able to go back any further so if anybody has any information on this branch that would be great.
I'm also interested on getting more information on Anne and her Salesbury branch.
I've found the wills on NLW for her father Henry and her grandfather Hugh Salesbury and I can't seem to go any further than that, although I believe that on Hugh's will it mentions a brother, William ap John.
So it's possibly that John Salesbury was Hugh's father.
I know Heather (Hiraeth) is descended from the Salesburys of Clocaenog has done some research on them and Anne in particular, so I'm interested to know what she thinks. :)
Thanks
Paul Salisbury
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Hi Paul,
Thanks very much for posting such an interesting and well-sourced opening enquiry!
I am sure that Heather will soon respond to you herself, but meanwhile I hope that it is safe to assume that you know of her interest thanks to her thread about a Salusbury/Salesbury PCC will a couple of years ago on this forum -- and perhaps also to her very recent enquiry on RootsWeb's Clwyd mailing list about Hugh Salesbury, the paternal grandfather of the Anne who forms the subject line of your new thread. (Do correct me if I have those assumptions wrong.)
To try and ensure that all readers have easy and direct access to that same starting knowledge base, as a foundation for the forthcoming discussion, here are hypertext links to the threads just mentioned:
RootsChat: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,263964.0.html *
RootsWeb: http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/CLWYD/2009-11/1258222726
It may also be worth mentioning another recent RootsWeb thread, tangentially related to the first one, which provides some more information about the PCC will that was the subject of Heather's RootsChat topic. Here is the link: http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/CLWYD/2009-11/1258761610
With all the info that you have posted to help, let's hope that we have a good platform for further progress.
Rol
* ADDED: Running in parallel with (and for a little longer than) this topic, there was a second that focused rather more widely on the Powell connection; and see especially Replies 13 and 17 for their direct Salesbury interest. Link is http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=703f02eb5ebc7f3de3e698f298baf3d9&topic=245036.0
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Hi Rol,
Thanks very much taking the time to read my post (as it is rather long!) and for posting those links up.
I had been aware of some them but it is very useful and to have all the information together in one post.
In fact without those previous posts I wouldn't have even made a connection!
Let's hope we can find some definitive proof.
Cheers
Paul
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Hello Paul
It's good to be in touch with someone else researching the elusive 17th & 18th century Salesbury families :)
Unfortunately I’m not sure if there is much I can contribute.
I have attached a couple of images of signatures for you to compare:
1) Anne Powell signed the bond for Ellis Powell - NLW ref B1696-112 (It's filed under Elis I believe - NLW server is down at the moment so unable to confirm at the moment).
2) Richard Powell signed the bond for Rowland Powell Wynne's estate in 1723 NLW ref B/1723/102.
As soon I as read the name Joshua I remembered I had seen a Joshua Salusbury in
the Clocaenog burial registers:
May 20, 1749 Anne SALUSBURY Wd/o Joshua (but nothing for Joshua himself and no marriage at Clocaenog)
I had wondered about this entry a couple of years ago but in light of your post perhaps this is “my” Anne. I have never found her baptism but as she married Ellis Powell in 1679 I estimated she would have been born circa 1660 which would have made her about 90 at death if she was this lady. Not impossible, I suppose but I’ve noticed that there is often a notation of great age in the register if someone achieved an above average life span of this nature!!!!
I have a file off the internet re the Salisburies of Lleweni. It used to be on aol homepage for “dalesman” but the site has since shut down. It appears to be a copy of a pedigree type document written in the 19th century. There is mention of a Joshua Salusbury who died at Denbigh in 1719 with his lineage going back to the William Salusbury of Plas isa Llanrwst and beyond. If you do not have it, please send me a personal message with your email and I will send it to you.
I look forward to your opinion on the signatures!
Heather
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I've found these baptisms in the Clwyd FHS transcripts of Clocaenog
Aug 14, 1698 Anne SALUSBURY d/o Joshua and Anne
Oct 28, 1700 Jane SALUSBURY d/o Joshua and Anne
Nov 2, 1701 Hugh SALUSBURY s/o Joshua and Anne
IF this was the same Anne Salesbury she bore SEVEN known children to Ellis Powell
Margaret 1681, Elizabeth 1683, Richard 1687, Catherine 1689-1690, Catherine 1692, Henry 1691-1691 and Henry 1695 and then a further NINE to Joshua :o SIXTEEN children over a span of 31 years ::) ::) and then proceeded to live to 85-90 years of age???
Ellis Powell was buried at Gyffylliog August 1, 1696 so my guess the marriage would have taken place mid-1697. Have you checked the North Wales/Hayes Marriage Index for a location?
H
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Hi Heather,
Thanks for posting those replies.
The information that you have provided looks like it could be very useful indeed :)
It's seems the Clocaenog PRs are providing quite a bit of information. Previously I would never have thought of looking there!
I have missed out those Clocaenog baptism completely. I always thought Hugh was a twin of William, now that appears not to be the case.
The signature of Richard Powell is almost certainly the same. The one for Anne is less clear as only the first name is the same.
If this is the the same Anne then she certainly was a strong woman with a hardy constitution!
Age is one thing that has nagged me about whether the 2 Anne's are one in the same.
If my 'Anne' is Anne Salesbury then she would have been well into her 40's when she had some of her children. Not impossible I know. Also the fact that she would have been 85-90 when she died is another thing.
Finding the marriage seems to be the key. I haven't looked in the Hayes index and I haven't come across it before. Where can I get hold of it?
I have been looking for this "dalesman" document that you have mentioned but as you say the site is now down. This looks like it could be interesting. I will send you a PM with my email.
I have all the Gyffylliog PRs if you need me to look something up. I also have Llanynys, Llanfwrog, Llanbedr DC and Bodfari.
I have to go Christmas shopping now :) but I will respond again later and try and post images of the signatures that I have.
Thanks again for responding.
Paul
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Hi Heather,
Here are the two signatures of Anne Salusbury and Richard Powell from the bond of Joshua Salusbury.
Certainly I think Richard Powell's signature is the same.
I have also found a couple of entries in the Gyffylliog PRs, not sure if you already have them.
Feb 4 1620 Grace vch John Salesbury
Apr 2 1625 Jane vch John Salesbury
Thanks
Paul
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Hi Heather,
I've found the North Wales Marriage Index that you referred to in your earlier post.
I was actual aware of Ann Hayes as she is from my home town but I didn't realise she did marriages before 1837! :-[
Anyway I will get her to have a look for me.
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Hi Paul
I've sent you the file directly ;) If you use the find function to locate the word "Joshua" in the document you will see that Joshua may have had ties to Llansantffraid Glan Conway and the Llanrwst area through his possible parents Thomas Salisbury & Mary Conway. Perhaps this is where some answers lie. All roads may yet lead to the Caernarvon Record Office. I'll have to have a hunt around for the the listing of their records as not sure if they go back that far in these areas.
The Anne signatures are quite different :-\ Perhaps all those childbirths altered her "hand" :D :D
The jury is still out for me :-\ :-\ :-\
I didn't have the baptisms for Grace and Jane from Gyffylliog so thank you very much for those!
The Hayes Index is an invaluable resource. I would never have found many in my tree without it.
H
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Hi Heather,
Thanks for sending me the file.
Thomas Salisbury and Mary Conway been Joshua's parents does contradict the other source information I have, which gives them as been Joshua and Lucy. Maybe the fact that the names are the same has caused some confusion. The death date in the document is the same but nothing else seems to match :(
Another reference to a Joshua been the son of a William Salisbury of Plas-Issa is also interesting.
As you say it does suggest a link with the Llanrwst branch which is something I hadn't considered before.
Yes, Anne's signature doesn't really prove anything either way.
I have requested the marriage look up, so hopefully we may soon determine if this is "your" Anne or not. :)
Thanks again,
Paul
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Hi Paul
I'm afraid that when it comes to the Salisburies as researched by "antiquarians" both past and more recent, it is a case of too many cooks spoiling the broth ;D ;D I expect the Society of Genealogists in London may have more information ?
I've located more info from a Grant Salisbury in my files including an email address. Have you come across this researcher?
Heather
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Hi Heather,
LOL. Yes very true. Anyway it would make things too easy for us otherwise! :)
No, I haven't come across Grant Salisbury before.
I haven't been doing this long so my connections are pretty thin on the ground.
Any information you have on or from him would be great.
Thanks
Paul
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Hi Heather and Paul,
It is excellent to see the progress that you two have been making in sifting through the evidence, even if a lot of it remains stubbornly ambiguous.
I think that I can fill in a bit more background about Heather's ... file off the internet re the Salisburies of Lleweni [which] used to be on aol homepage for “dalesman” but the site has since shut down [and which] appears to be a copy of a pedigree type document written in the 19th century
(Reply 3).
I too have the files from that site, and I think that the Grant Salisbury whom Heather mentions as the source of some other info (Reply 10) was the AOL site owner and the person who made and uploaded the OCR-files from a copy of the book. I have never been in contact with him, but I would imagine that it would worth checking out his current knowledge via that e-mail address.
The book itself is quite an eccentric production -- privately printed, no publication date (probably early 1860s), and unpaginated. An image of the full title page appears at the foot of this post. The man behind the publication was in fact the one who modestly described himself there as the nameless contributor of the "other notes and additions by another descendant of the family". But the authorial voice in much of the text seems to be his. His full name was Enoch Robert Gibbon Salisbury (who is also sometimes seen as "Salusbury" and whom I shall abbreviate to ERGS). At the start of Chapter Nine he fills in some more background about the book's preparation, which shows that the initial materials were gathered by a Salusbury in the USA who apparently died young and whose papers were entrusted to (or otherwise acquired by) ERGS. He then passed them to his brother Stephen, who arranged them further and added more; but then died himself, so passing responsibility for the project back to ERGS. Here is the relevant passage in full:
The preceding narrative had been prepared by a very promising young man, HENRY COTTON SALUSBURY, a lineal descendant of the Lleweni family, through one of the branches that had settled in the United States of America. It came into my hands in a somewhat rough and unfinished state, and was entrusted to one of my brothers -- STEPHEN GIBBON SALISBURY -- for correction. All my papers were placed in his care for this purpose, and he added many facts to the original documents, and would, had his life been spared, have completed, with his usual care and research, the history of the family in a manner that must have added greatly to his credit for learning and scholarly attainments. A great number of the early notes had been written by myself, as the sheets came to me for perusal, and I have added to them, from time to time, when additional information enabled me to do so . . .
ERGS was quite a colourful man, starting out as a clerk in the Chester gas company, but rising to be the manager, then reading for the bar and doing well dealing with private parliamentary bills etc, and briefly serving as Liberal MP for Chester. He took a great interest in local history and accumulated a good library of Welsh material (now mainly at Cardiff University Library, and described here (http://www.cf.ac.uk/insrv/libraries/scolar/special/salisbury.html), here (http://www.archiveshub.org.uk/cgi-bin/deadsearch.cgi?serverid=VSPOKES-ead-cardiff&bool=AND&numreq=1&fieldcont1=30&format=full&fieldidx1=docid&scanposition=middle&firstrec=1&noframes=on) and -- in more detail -- here (http://www.cardiff.ac.uk/insrv/libraries/scolar/archives/welsharchives.html)). He also wrote a series of potted biographies of local figures for the Oswestry Advertiser, collected and republished by the Advertiser ca. 1880 as "Border Counties Worthies". There are articles on him in both the DNB and the DWB; here is a link (http://wbo.llgc.org.uk/en/s-SALI-GIB-1819.html?query=Salisbury&field=name) to the latter. That says that his son became a soldier of fortune in the Balkans and the Congo.
ERGS's Salusbury book is an alternately fascinating and frustrating work. It is infuriating that he does not quote full source refs. more often -- if he did not cite authority more efficiently in court than that, he would have been in bad trouble! I agree with you both that the content has to be treated with great caution, as there are blatant errors. But it does have its rôle as a quarry for clues and ideas, subject to a sceptical eye and corroboration from other more reliable sources.
Rol
Postcsript: I ought probably to add for the record that in Chapter Eight ERGS traces his own descent from John, younger brother of the Joshua Salusbury of Denbigh (d.1719) who is a main focus in this thread. One of John's sons, Henry, is said to have gone to London and then to America (and so could perhaps have been the ancestor of the Henry of the USA credited on the title page of the book), while another, David, is stated to have been father to Joseph who in turn was father to ERGS himself.
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Hi Rol & Paul
Thank you for providing some background to this Salusburies of Lleweni document. Very interesting. Unfortunately I can't find the original files on my current computer. :-[ I was sent the link originally by a cousin and reformatted the information. Unfortunately I no longer appear to have access to the original chapters on my old laptop. I've emailed my cousin to see if she can resend the files as well as Grant Salisbury's contact info. I've sent the reformatted edition to Paul in the meantime. Rol, I seem to remember there was a missing chapter which may well have been Chapter 7. Sorry!
On the bright side it appears that a John Salusbury's will of 1637 is now on line. I'm off to try and figure it out in case he mentions a son Hugh and William ;)
H
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Hi,
Rol - thanks for that background information.
I had certainly heard of ERGS before but I never knew he was responsible for this document.
He certainly sounds like an interesting character!
It's just a shame that the book wasn't approached in a more academic manner, but as you say, at least it gives pointers, which can then be investigated further.
Heather - thanks for trying to find the original document, it's much appreciated. Good luck with trying to find 'your' John.
Thanks
Paul
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Hi Paul
I found another entry in the baptisms of RUTHIN
Sep 25, 1702 Luce SALISBURY, d/o Josuah
Heather
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Hi Heather,
Thanks very much for that one.
They seem to be popping up all over the place!
I've just heard back from Ann Hayes.
She can't find the marriage for Joshua and Anne anywhere on her index.
Ah well. The search goes on.
Thanks
Paul
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That's a pity about the Hayes Index. Of course the trouble is that quite a few registers do not survive that early -- and many parishes' BTs were badly preserved for the quarter century or so starting in the 1690s. Still, the index search was definitely worth a try. I am not up to date on how far into Cheshire and Salop coverage now extends. I think a few people used to go off to Chester (which I am fairly confident is covered), Oswestry (probably) and Shrewsbury (not sure).
Rol
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Perhaps they had a handfast marriage or there was a relationship which precluded them from marrying in the church?
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Hi Rol & Heather,
Yes, there could be many reasons why it didn't turn up on the index. Ann's index does cover some parishes over the border, as Rol says.
There's a chance the marriage could have been held outside of north Wales, although that seems unlikely.
If there were married in north Wales then either they didn't marry in a church (was this a common occurrence at the time?) or the record of it has been lost.
I think I'll investigate the possibility that the marriage was held outside of north Wales as that seems to be the only option of finding something. My hopes aren't very high though.
Paul
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With an estimated marriage date c1697 it was well before Hardwicke's Marriage Act of 1754, which made marriage in established church mandatory for all but Quakers & Jews.....
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Hi Heather,
I came across this in a book of Oxford Alumni.
Did Anne have an older brother?
Paul
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Yes I believe she did have a brother who would have been Hugh ap Harry (Henry) ap Hugh :) I think he must have died before 1691 when her father made his will, because everything seemed to be left to Anne & Ellis Powell and their children. but he is mentioned in the grandfather's will :) Sorry I thought you had seen the wills.
Heather
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Hi Heather,
I have seen the wills but it's possible my eyesight might have been going a bit funny when I was reading her grandfather's one :). I must have missed Hugh.
Still, it's quite an achievement getting a degree from an Oxford college!
A few of the 'Rug' Salesburys also attended Jesus college around the same time - learning about the law no doubt!
Paul
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They are very hard to read >:( I've started a transcription of the 1661 one. I can only look at them for about half an hour before my eyes go ::) ;D ;D I'll email you the working copy ;)
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Re: Replies 21-2 and that entry in Alumni Oxon. about Hugh Salesbury matric. from Jesus Coll. 1675, BA 1678 (possibly brother to Anne Salesbury Powell).
The Clergy Database has entries for a "Hugo Salesbury" BA who was appointed school master at Wallingford Free Grammar School on 18 May 1680 and was apparently also recorded as being curate of Nettlebed the following month (plus still there in June 1681 and June 1682): for source go to the index page (http://www.theclergydatabase.org.uk/jsp/search/index.jsp) and see person IDs 105072 and 82047; then use the entry expansion buttons.
The date match looks quite good, and a young death in Berks./Oxon. would explain his failure to reappear in North Wales. Presumably there would be a local burial record.
He is unlikely to have had much property -- but then the clergy were encouraged to make wills. To display due diligence, probably ought to be checked. Does anyone have easy access to the Oxford probate index volumes produced by the British Record Society? (S'pose one should really ask on the Oxfordshire Board . . . *) Predictably, nothing 1680-1700 at the PCC.
Rol
* DONE (10.12.09, 19:40 GMT)
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Hi Rol
Thank you for the link :)
H
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Hi - I have checked the Oxfordshire probate index 1516-1732 & 1733-1857 & the probate records for Oxfordshire peculiars 1547-1857 and there is nothing listed for Hugh Salesbur/Salisbury/Saulsbury etc that I can see
DebbieG
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Many thanks, Debbie. Very good of you to take the trouble to check for us. It was worth a shot!
Now we just need SKS with access to (probably) Nettlebed PR -- though I suppose that he could have moved on to some other parish in the diocese before embarking on that final journey to meet his maker . . .
Rol
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Hi DebbieG
Thanks from me too :)
Heather
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This is very interesting.
Rol - good work on finding that entry.
Debbie - thanks for doing the look up.
A vocation in the church would certainly be the most likely outcome after attending Jesus college.
Things do seem to tie up pretty well.
Paul
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Hello to all,
I have taken an interest in this and thought I would say that there is a HUGE amount of information on this family on Ancestry World Tree.
This includes details on the connections with the Cotton family of Combermere and many more. There is a reference to another clergyman, Reverend Thelwell Salusbury, born c1702, Cotton Hall, Denbigh.
Some of the entries need checking as it is never certain how accurate these are.
Jo
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Hi Jo,
Yup, that figures. It is a huge family. One could devote many a thread to its myriad branches. And I certainly agree with your (cautious) level of confidence in trees on Anc***ry.com, notwithstanding that some oysters do contain pearls!
Rol
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I have found a burial for a Hugh SALESBURY at Ruthin Aug 27, 1681 :-\
H
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Hmmm. Wonder if the underlying entry gives more -- probably not, assuming the burial record comes via the CFHS, which is usually reliable about including abodes and other such supplementary identifying info from PRs.
Trouble is, the Liber Cleri cited by the Clergy Database has their "Salisbury" recorded as being still in post at Nettlebed on 23 June 1682, so we are very probably looking at two different men.
Which to choose . . . ? If forced to bet, for now I'd probably stay with the cleric. There certainly were other Salusburys/Salesburys about in Ruthin in the 17th c., so they do need to be watched.
Rol
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Hi,
Jo - thanks for taking an interest in this thread.
The Salusbury/Salesbury/Salisbury family of Denbighshire is a very interesting family. Many books contain information about the better known and illustrious branches.
There are also many branches which are not so well documented and the aim is to try and find out where (if at all) they fit into the better known branches.
Certainly this is the case for my branch. :(
The Salusburys of Cotton Hall, who you mention, are also very closely associated with both Offley and Graveley in Hertfordshire, two places that are just a few miles away from where I now live.
Rol/Heather - It's a shame there is not more information on the burial record. If a child died before their father it would hopefully say who the father was.
In Llanfwrog there is baptism record for an Edward Salesbury s/o Hugh and Elizabeth born Sep 16 1666 (I think it should be 1666 as the CFHS transcript seems to have have a very long 1665 and then skips to 1667, probably a missing title). So there is at least one other Hugh it could be.
Mind you, there is also a burial record in Llanfwrog, with no other information, for a Hugh Salesbury who died in 1670 - so who knows!
Paul
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Hi Paul,
... so there is at least one other Hugh it could be. Mind you, there is also a burial record in Llanfwrog, with no other information, for a Hugh Salesbury who died in 1670 - so who knows!
It is certainly not easy to be really confident about which man was Anne Salesbury Powell's brother Hugh. But I do think that the entry in Foster's Alum. Oxon. is probably the best pointer we currently have, given the explicit link shown to a Henry Salesbury (right spelling) of Clocaenog.
Rol
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Hi Rol,
I agree.
The PR entries don't really offer anything to the contrary, due to their lack of additional information.
Hugh was not an uncommon Salesbury name.
Paul
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Hello Pauls63,
My interest in this family is partly due to the fact I lived in the areas of North Wales where they came from. I have also visited some of the places they lived etc, Rug and Llanrhaeadr yng Nghinmeirch being a couple of them.
I also know Combermere and that area too.
The families who lived at Cotton Hall are well covered on Ancestry World Tree. I take it you have access to this? Let me have contact details via PM if not.
A list of names that you are seeking would be helpful, I can see what I can come up with. I possess a few old books on North Wales which are a mine of information.
Are you doing this research for your own interest, or is there a book planned?
Jo
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Hi Jo,
Well, I'm definitely not writing a book, although it would be great if someone else did :)
I was born and bred in Ruthin and my family are still around there. Unfortunately I don't live there anymore which would certainly make my research a bit easier.
I have only just started looking at my family tree and I'm ashamed to say I knew nothing about the Salusburys until I started researching my ancestors.
My main area of research at the moment is trying to trace my specific branch, although I have read a fair bit about the more famous branches.
Obviously at this point I'm not even sure there is even a connection to this family, although I would be surprised if there wasn't, as there was so many of them.
Thanks for the offer of looking up some names. I'll PM you my contact details.
Cheers
Paul
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I have only just started looking at my family tree and I'm ashamed to say I knew nothing about the Salusburys ...
. . . well I wish I had picked up the necessary skills (way back when) as fast as you seem to have done, Paul! :)
Rol
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Something I had not realized until now is that the Chester Archives also hold wills/probates for some of the Salusbury connections in North Wales :)
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Presumably most of those are the wills of people who lived in those few Flintshire parishes or townships that lay within the jurisdiction of the Bishop of Chester. But in addition some people from North Wales certainly moved to Chester to set up in business -- as was the case with Harri ap Ffoulke Salesbury, one of the cadet-line grandsons of the Piers Salesbury of Bachymbyd who married the heiress of Rûg: for MS pedigree refs., see Bartrum's WG2, page Salesbury 9, and the note to that page shown in Additions & Corrections vol I (Harri/Henry's son Ffoulke was landlord of the Talbot Inn at Chester, and became one of the city's aldermen: NLW Wynnstay MS 144 p724.)
Many people would also have come to Chester for shorter term business or social/pleasure purposes, including marriage (c.f. my Reply 17); but it seems unlikely that their period of residence would have been sufficient to justify the diocese of Chester gaining jurisdiction over their wills.
Some of the people in this category who possessed larger rent-rolls had town houses there, as also happened in the cases of Oswestry (a bit) and Shrewsbury (more so). If their own ancestral estate was remote and wild, such people could develop home-sickness in its alternative (i.e. opposite) meaning and end up becoming almost full time city-dwellers. But the normal result of such multi-jurisdictional property ownership would be to make a PCC grant necessary.
In the earlier 17th c., when the Court of the Council in the Marches of Wales (based at Ludlow Castle) was still very active, there could be legal reasons for leaving one's home parish and moving to a more congenial base such as Chester, where the court's writ no longer ran as once it had. Many years ago I came across a rather venomous land dispute in western Denbighshire temp. Charles I in which the complainant had been successful at Ludlow but the defendant (his mother as it happened) was defying the court's decrees. He lost patience, had the land sequestrated by the sheriff's men and had a warrant issued for his ma's arrest. But she outwitted him, as he later bleated in a Chancery bill, because ... she hath withdrawne herself and her habitac'on ... into the cittie of Chester, where shee now liveth
No idea whether she stayed on and died there -- never found a Chester will (or any other sort) for her, unfortunately. But she was certainly a fighter, and no doubt others occasionally moved out of the wilds of Wales to Chester for similar reasons, and unlike her did leave evidence of the fact in the probate records.
Rol
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The link to the Cheshire Record Office Wills Database which is online is as follows:
http://www.cheshire.gov.uk/Recordoffice/Wills/Home.html
It is possible to search this and order a Will online.
The relationship between Chester and the Welsh "immigrants" is complex, even to this day. As Rol says, many of the wealthy families maintained a town house in Chester. This seems to have been very fashionable in the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries. Indeed some of the better houses in Chester have been built for wealthy patrons from other areas. The place which is the Bear and Billet pub was once the town house of the Earl of Shrewsbury. There are many more like this.
A friend maintains that even to this day, a Cestrian has the right to shoot any Welshman found after dusk within the walls of the City of Chester. I should add that it is shoot with a bow and arrow. The original law which permitted this has never been repealed. I don't plan to put this to the test. ;D
Jo
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Thanks for the link Jo. The will I found does not appear to have been proved at Chester as it doesn't come up in their database. It appears to have been held in the archives of the Birchmore Cullimore Collection. (Birchmore Cullimore were auctioneers and solicitors in Chester for about 500 years :D ) A bit odd really. The NA say it is in the Chester Archives but now it has supposedly been sent to the Clwyd Record Office but their archive database does not show it is held there either :'( The document (DBC 1/16/4) is the will and probate (16 Jan 1578/9) of a Thomas Vychan Salisbury of Llan Elidan co Denb.
I've been searching the NLW archives using Bodyngharad and Hugh for search terms with some interesting results.
1620, July 22.
EXEMPLIFICATION of the final concord in a fine between Humfrey Midleton and Hugh Salesbury, gentlemen, plaintiffs, and Robert Salesbury, kt., and Eleanor, his wife, deforciants, of 100 messuages, etc.
1650, March 29.
EXEMPLIFICATION of the final concord between Humphrey Midleton an Hugh Salusbury, gentlemen, plaintiffs, and Robert Salusbury, kt., and Elinor, his wife, deforciants, of 100 messuages, etc
I'm out of my depth here ;) Does anyone know what the phrase "EXEMPLIFICATION of the final corcord" means ?
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Hi Heather,
I think that the Thomas Vychan Salisbury whose 1578/9 will you mention was the first man in the junior line that led from the main Bachymbyd/Rûg stem down to the "Wynnes" (properly Salesburys) of Meyarth at the northern end of Gwyddelwern parish. I have long wanted a chance to read it -- most wills of that date (including this one) did not survive the rigours of time in the Bangor diocesan archives, so the existence of an original grant with the text of the will in that little group of deeds in the Birch Cullimore collection (Howarden RO part) is very fortunate. I have yet to find an opportunity to look at it. (Any volunteers?!)
As to your legal query, an exemplification in this sort of context was a formal and certified extract from a court record, acceptable as evidence in litigation, etc. A final concord was a court-enrolled agreement to settle a legal dispute. In the context of land law, feigned actions* were often brought to create a binding settlement between parties conveying land, and had the effect of cutting off or barring entailed interests and other unprotected incumbrances on the title -- so making possible a subsequent clean sale (or re-settlement or mortgage) of the property concerned. A "deed to lead the uses of a fine" [often "and recovery"] was the pre-arranged new settlement that would spring to life once a planned fine was safely passed and inrolled.
In the case of the Bachymbyd transactions you mention, I think the Sir Robert Salesbury there was the spendthrift owner of the estate before the William who held Denbigh Castle for the king in the Civil War. The two documents may be two certificates issued about the same underlying fine, but obtained from the court thirty years apart -- not sure without checking the text. (Pretty sure Sir RS was dead long before 1650.)
Rol
* (or, more accurately, collusive actions)
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Hi Rol
Thank you for the explanation. I think I understand :-\ It seems odd that they would be dated thirty years apart and particularly since I've also found a probate of yet another Hugh Salesburie of Bodyngharad Nov 11, 1623 (which does not show up with the NLW documents listed on their website anyway). If the 1630 Hugh S and Robert S were both deceased by 1650, and the latter one does mention 6400 acres and 20 pounds rent, do you think this means the dispute was settled by their respective estates?
Thomas Vychan S caught my eye because I found these:
179.
1616, May 4.
GRANT from Hugh ap Thomas Vaughan Salusbury of Bodengharad, co. Denbigh, gent., to Robert Salusbury, his son, of a parcel of land called y kay melyn (8a.) in Bodengharad
201.
1614,Nov.22.
BARGAIN AND SALE from William Salesburie of Rvg. co. Merioneth, esq., to Hugh Salesburie of Bodengharad, co. Denbigh, gent., of a burgage or messuage in which Peter Salesburie** now dwells and all barns, etc., belonging, in the parish of Llanvorovke, commote of Collion, in the liberties and franchises of the town of Ruthin, co. Denbigh
819.
1573, May 7.
1. Thomas ap John Salesburye of bodeeharad, co. Denbighe, gent.;
2. Griffith ap Symonde of the same place, yeoman.
GRANT in fee farm of a parcel in the township of bodeeharad and hengoid, co. Denbighe, bounded by land called Caye Eva, by the land of John Mydelton formerly belonging to the church of llanvorocke, by the road leading from Ruthin towards pont vchell and by the water called cloyedocke.
Latin.
826.
1593, April 19.
1. Thomas ap Ieuan ap Madock of Bodyngharad, co. Denbigh, yeoman;
2. Hugh ap Thomas ap John salesbury.
BOND concerning possession of a parcel called kae yr deyntyr in the township of Bodyngharad, co. Denbigh, bounded by land called kae Eva, by the land of William middelton, by the highway leading from Ruthin towards pont vchel and by the brook called Clowedock.
652.
1598, Nov. 25.
1. Thomas ap Ieuan ap madok of Bodynghard, co. denbighe, yeoman;
2. Hugh ap Thomas ap John Salesbury of Bodyngharad, gent.
GRANT of a parcel called kay yr deintyr in the township of Bodyngharad within the commote of Collion and lordship of Dyffrincloyde, co. Denbighe, bounded by land called kay Eva, by the highway leading from Ruthin towards y bont vchel and by the river klywedog.
Latin.
Baptism at RUTHIN Nov 5, 1595 Peter SALISBURY s/o Hughe
Baptism at RUTHIN May 19, 1598 John SALESBURY s/o Hugh
Baptism at RUTHN Jul 28, 1601 Margaret SALESBURY d/o Hugh
I'm getting more and more confused. I don't see how the Hugh above can be my Hugh who died in 1661 because he mentions a brother William ap John and unless he was about 90 when he died the timing is not right. Neither does the scenario of my Hugh being the son of the John S baptized in 1598 because in that case he would died at about 40 with 13 grandchildren who were each left five pounds - a fair sum of money in 1661. He did have a daughter Margaret though :-\ If only there were more baptism and marriage records. It seems to be a case of so near and yet so far. :'(
Heather
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... I'm getting more and more confused. ... It seems to be a case of so near and yet so far. :'(
It's a jungle out there . . . ;) They were all far too keen on the name Hugh. But we must at least be thankful for that nice distinctive surname.
The NLW Bachymbyd Deeds are a great source, aren't they? Well worth ploughing through.
I think the exemplifications relate to the transaction of 41 Q. Eliz. specified here:
562. 1607/8, March 1.
WRIT under the Great Seal pardoning Humfrey Middleton and Hugh Salisburie, gentlemen, for alienation by acquiring by fine, 9 June 41 Elizabeth, of Robert Salisburie, kt., and Eleanor, his wife, of the park, messuage, lands and tenements called parke Clockaynock otherwise Clockaynock Parke in Clockaynock, Llanvorrock, Giffiliog, and Llanynys, and the messuage, lands, etc., called ffrieth Bedcrosse and Ynetig in Giffiliog and Llanynys, co. Denbigh.
Latin.
The differences between the 1620 and the 1650 documents are probably just copyists' or scheduling variations. Whoever wrote the 1650 one may have been late for his bus on a Friday evening -- note the "etc, etc"! So the omission of the acreage and one annual rent probably does not tell us much. (BTW, the artificial court action ending with a "fine"/ "final concord" or "fine and recovery" was just a conveyancing stratagem -- no underlying dispute, at least not at that level.)
Sir Robert S (husband of Eleanor) is said to have died in 1603 (see e.g. Griffith's PACF p.59), and the Bachymbyd deeds of the first decade of the 17th c. do seem consistent with that sort of dating. (Although the description of his only son John's IPM dated 7 Oct. 1609 does seem a bit confused.) Not sure when the other parties to the fine died, but if they were active towards the end of Eliz. I's reign, I suppose that by 1650 they were more likely to be dead than alive.
As to those Salesburys in Bodyngharad, it is frustrating not to be able to anchor them down -- especially with a good long string like Robert ap Hugh ap Thomas Fychan Salesbury. The risk is that there may have been more than one Thomas Fychan Salesbury on the loose. The one about whom I am reasonably confident (whose 1578/9 will you mentioned in Reply 44) is generally said to have had sons called Thomas Wynn S, Robert S, Piers S and Ffoulke S. Not seen a Hugh mentioned -- but perhaps that Birch Cullimore will might add one to the list: a tempting thought.
Rol
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Hello Heather,
I did think that the Birch Cullimore Collection was held in Chester RO. I believe that I have seen something from this there in the past. I have an idea that all, or part, of this is held in the salt mines at Winsford. The RO keep an overflow of their archives there. Reason why I say this is that I remember having to wait a couple of weeks for them to fetch it. Might be worth checking with them again. Let me know if you are stuck as I have a friend who visits Chester RO every week.
Since Birch Cullimore had (and have) an office in Whitefriars, Chester, any deposits should be held in Cheshire RO.
A search of the Cheshire archive online gives a number of hits for Salesbury/Salusbury/Salisbury. The Chester spelling seems more anglicised than the Welsh.
Jo
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Thank you for the kind offer of help Jo. Living a continent away has it's drawbacks at times :( I've emailed the Chester archives for more information re obtaining a copy of the document. Will await their response.
And thank you very much for sharing your knowledge & research experience Rol. It's been very helpful and encouraging.
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Like Paul I think someone would write a book about this family. The tale related in this document is worthy of a book by itself :)
720.
1613, May 22.
INSPEXIMUS of a decree in Chancery between William Salisbury, esq., complainant, and Pierce Griffith, esq., Elen Owen, widow, and others, defendants. Complaint by William Salisburye of Ruge, co. Merioneth, esq., against defendants that John Salisburye the younger, son of John Salisbury of Rug, esq., deceased, and brother to Sir Robert Salisbury, kt., deceased, and to complainant, was siesed in fee tail, with remainder to complainant, of the chief manor house and demesne lands called Bachymbyd, co. Denbigh, and of a park called Poole Parke and various other messuages, etc., in cos. Denbigh and Merioneth, of the yearly value of £1200, and so seised by some wasteful courses grown in debt to the sum of £1500, about 4 years ago entreated complainant to join with him in the mortgage of some of the lands to furnish money to pay the debts, who did so and mortgaged the capital messuage called Bachymbyd with all demesne thereto used with divers other messuages, etc., in co. Denbigh, in all amounting to the yearly value of £500; which were assured to John Williams of Chepeside, Goldsmith for £3000, with condition of redemption on payment of £3,900, with which John Salisbury paid his debts of £1500 and received to himself the £1500 residue. The said money being known to be in John Salisburie’s hands, and he himself growing weak and sickly, Elen Owen, wife of John Owen, gent., deceased, having insinuated herself into familiarity with him by offer to be a nurse to him in his weakness and to employ her best cares for the recovery of his health, sought to make a prey to herself and her accomplices of the whole estate of money, land and goods of the said John Salisburye and to divide the same with her adherents, i.e. John Owen, her husband, Piers Griffith, esq., Thomas Vaughan, John Wyn Salisbury, and Piers Lloyd, and finding that John Salisbury had retired to a little farmhouse called Poole Parke, co. Denbigh, of his own inheritance on purpose there to remain private with little expenses and to attend to the directions given him for the recovery of his health and strength, Elen persuaded him to remove to her husband’s house at Fernyll, co. Salop, to live with them, which he did about 2 years before he died. He and her confederated persuaded him to sell other lands of his ancient inheritance to the value of £2000, which sum was delivered to the hands of defendants. Before going to Owen’s house John Salisburye had asked plaintiff to seek out some convenient marriage for himself and promised to assure all his lands upon him so that he should enjoy the same immediately after John’s deceased, John having fully resolved never to marry. Complainant thereupon agreed to marry a gentlewoman of good descent with whom he was to have £ 2000 and more, which was to be used towards redemption of the mortgage. Before his removal to Owen’s house John Salisburye had made his will and published the same to many of his friends and kinsmen, whereby he disposed of all or most of his personal estate to complainant, who was also to be executor. Defendant solicited him not to consent to the marriage, to make conveyance to complainant, nor dispose by will or otherwise of his estate to complainant; all which slanders against complainant they procured him to do. Defendants, in the extremity of his sickness, drew him to make a leade of the most part of his lands not previously mortgaged to Piers Griffith and John Owen, for 30 years without any valuable consideration. Complainants’ confirmation to this lease was obtained by fraud and deceit. Later defendants persuaded John Salisbury to release to John Williams the condition of redemption, for £3300, thereby utterly disinheriting complainant thereof, and also barring him of the monies received for the mortgage and release, amounting to £7000, which sum was divided among defendants, except £740 yet unpaid of the last £3300, for which John Salisbury caused John Williams to enter into a bond to Piers Griffith. Last Michaelmas John Salisbury, being again in alter his will, naming Piers Griffith sole executor.
It is decreed, 15 May, 1613, that complainant, his heirs and assigns shall have, hold, and enjoy the lands leased to Piers Griffith and John Owen, notwithstanding the said lease, which lease is to be delivered by defendants to complainant, the Lord Chancellor to have a note of the charitable legacies demised by the will and consider what is fit to be performed thereof; also ordered that Piers Griffith shall not discharge any of the bonds taken in his name for debt due to John Salisbury nor receive any of the sum, nor as executor receive any money or debt due by any person to John Salisbury nor otherwise as executor take any benefit of any of the personal estate, nor discharge any person of any debt, the bonds to be brought by him to this Court, by 20 June next, as well those as all such as now remain in court to be delivered to complainant. Great Seal attached.
I'm not entirely sure I want to be related to this family :D ;D :D
Merry Christmas everyone :)
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On the location of the Welsh part of Birch Cullimore's archive, and thus of Thomas Vychan Salisbury's will (apparently dated 9 Oct. 1576 and proved at Bangor 16 Jan. 1578/9), here is some confirmatory detail for the sake of clarity.
I have an idea that originally the full archive went to Chester RO for assessment and sorting and they produced an overall schedule. Given how much of the collection concerned estates in North East Wales, the decision was subsequently taken to transfer all that material onwards to Howarden RO. The Birch Cullimore schedule as digitised for the National Register of Archives (and so A2A) must have been based on the overall, pre-transfer schedule made by Chester RO. Very few of Howarden's own schedules have been made available in full online, so the visibility of this material via the web is fortunate.
That archival history still generates the following misleading entry in A2A:
DBC 1/16/4 9 Oct. 1576
These documents are held at Cheshire and Chester Archives and Local Studies Service
Contents:
WILL AND PROBATE (16 Jan. 1578/9) of Thomas Vychan Salisbury of Llan Elidan, co.Denb.
But if one collapses the detail buttons to show an overview of the Foulkes of Eriviatt segment of the collection, a little amendment phrase does disclose the truth (I have highlighted this and also the Nantclwyd sub-section where the will is located):
FOULKES FAMILY OF ERIVIATT AND CHESTER DBC 1 [n.d.]
These documents are held at Cheshire and Chester Archives and Local Studies Service
Conditions of access: DBC 1/6-16 and DBC 1/18-19: Transferred to Clwyd Record Office.
Archival history:
Acc.123(pt.)
Contents:
SUMMARY
DBC 1/1 Rectory of St. John Baptist, Chester, and related premises. 58 docs. 1509-1718.
DBC 1/2 Personal papers of Adams family of Chester and elsewhere. 42 docs. 1655-1791.
DBC 1/3 Premises in Bridge Street, Chester. 15 docs. 1527-1748.
DBC 1/4 Probate documents of Jane Hughes of Chester. 7 docs. 1736-1752.
DBC 1/5 Chester miscellaneous. 1 file. 1757.
DBC 1/6 Salusbury of Bryn-y-Barcut, co.Denb. 39 docs. 1700-1732.
DBC 1/7 Probate of William Williams of Glen-y-Werne, co.Denb. 1 doc. 1682.
DBC 1/8 Foulkes of Eriviatt, co.Denb. 23 docs. 1648-1856.
DBC 1/9 Rev. Henry Foulkes of Oxford. 6 docs. 1820-1833.
DBC 1/10 Rev. P.J.B. Foulkes of Rode Rectory. 1 bdl. 1887-1898.
DBC 1/11 Sir William Wynne Foulkes. 1 vol., 4 gatherings, 1 file, 3 bdls. 1863-1913.
DBC 1/12 Havod yr Abbat in Lordship of Yale. 7 docs. 1607-1618.
DBC 1/13 Havodynnos. 1 doc. 1615.
DBC 1/14 Henllan. 1 doc. 1785.
DBC 1/15 Thelwall of Llanbedr, co.Denb. 33 docs. 1547-1772.
DBC 1/16 Nancloyd. 12 docs. 1574-1609.
DBC 1/17 Rectory of Ideford, co.Devon. 4 docs. 1713-1765.
DBC 1/18 Premises in Argoed in Mold, co.Flint. 1 doc. 1604.
DBC 1/19 Premises in Vaynol, co.Flint. 11 docs. 1624-1705.
This is the summary info that appears on ANW -- now re-named "Archives Wales" -- about the papers at Howarden (for the full entry click on the link):
Flintshire Record Office
Birch Cullimore MSS (http://www.archiveswales.org.uk/anw/get_collection.php?coll_id=2234&inst_id=28&term=Birch Cullimore)
Reference code(s): GB 0208 D/B
Title: Birch Cullimore MSS
Short title: Birch Cullimore & Co. collection of manuscripts
Dates of creation: 1311-1956 ...
Extent and medium: 3456 items
Name of creator(s): Birch, Cullimore & Co., Solicitors, Chester.
Rol
ADDED: That case, Heather, was certainly an 'A' grade chancery row. :) It used to strike me that poor old WS of Rûg almost had more stress from the foolishness of his own brothers and nephew (plus the malevolence of the bloodsuckers who latched onto them) than ever he did from General Mytton and all Cromwell's men!
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It used to strike me that poor old WS of Rûg almost had more stress from the foolishness of his own brothers and nephew (plus the malevolence of the bloodsuckers who latched onto them) than ever he did from General Mytton and all Cromwell's men!
;D ;D Defending the castle was probably a d**n sight easier than dealing with "family" ::) ::)
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Hi Rol,
On a slight different topic, please could you help on how I could get hold of the book "The Salisburies of Lleweni". The reason I ask is your comment about chapter 8 where he traces his own descent.
Kevin
I think that I can fill in a bit more background about Heather's ... file off the internet re the Salisburies of Lleweni [which] used to be on aol homepage for “dalesman” but the site has since shut down [and which] appears to be a copy of a pedigree type document written in the 19th century
(Reply 3).
I too have the files from that site, and I think that the Grant Salisbury whom Heather mentions as the source of some other info (Reply 10) was the AOL site owner and the person who made and uploaded the OCR-files from a copy of the book. I have never been in contact with him, but I would imagine that it would worth checking out his current knowledge via that e-mail address.
Postcsript: I ought probably to add for the record that in Chapter Eight ERGS traces his own descent from John, younger brother of the Joshua Salusbury of Denbigh (d.1719) who is a main focus in this thread. One of John's sons, Henry, is said to have gone to London and then to America (and so could perhaps have been the ancestor of the Henry of the USA credited on the title page of the book), while another, David, is stated to have been father to Joseph who in turn was father to ERGS himself.
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Hello Kevin -- and a warm welcome to the forum (with apologies for being a bit slow in coming here to look at your message).
As you have read in the two old posts you cited, Heather and I both saw the online text of the book as posted by Grant Salisbury in his Salisbury Genealogy pages, hosted by AOL in the section of their site devoted to user-generated web pages. As you will also have worked out via your search engine, it very much looks as though (for whatever reason) Grant never moved his material to a replacement webhost in the way advised by AOL -- and it therefore all seems to have been deleted without replacement. I have failed to find any alternative online version, e.g. via Google Books or the Internet Archive, though conceivably you and I may both have neglected to put in the right search terms to bring it up. Nor can I instantly spot a postal or e-mail address for a (Yorkshire-based?) Grant Salisbury -- though Facebook users might, I suppose, find some way of contacting him via that site. Heather did have an e-mail address for him once upon a time, but I think she said that it had gone AWOL.
In hardcopy the book is certainly rare: for instance, the UK's principal copyright library (the BL at St Pancras) does not seem to have a copy, and nothing came up for me on WorldCat. The copy that I have used in the past is the one held by the National Library of Wales, so if you are within reasonable range of Aberystwyth that is probably the best way for you to gain access. If the NLW option is impractical and you want information just on the passage in Chapter 8 dealing with the authors' own branch, do get in touch with me via this site's personal messaging (PM) system and I'll see whether I can help you out. (N.B. the forum software will deny you use of the PM facility until you have made one more post on a public board [e.g. "OK, I'll send you a PM"]) ;) Thereafter, little green scrolls (lit or unlit) should become visible to you under other posters' names , and you just need to click on the relevant one of those to bring up a text box for your message.
Of course if any other reader of this thread finds a new online copy of the book, it would be great if they would let us all know.
Rol
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Thanks Rol!
I'll send you a PM!
Kevin
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Hi kevlobb
The original posts can still be found online to read or copy by using the Wayback Machine. I accessed the 2002 edition. This is the reference for Chapter 8. Other chapters can be accessed by changing the chapter number in the search box on WBM.
http://members.aol.com/dalesman/wales8.htm
HTH
Heather
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Well done, Heather! I remember once hearing that such a site existed, but never had the URL -- and was rather sceptical as to quite how "universal" it might actually be. That's definitely a new one for the bookmarks folder. :)
I have also sent Kevin a key passage or two via PM, but I am sure he will be delighted to know that he can now gain access to the whole thing (still barring Chap. 7, I suppose).
Rol
P.S. I have to go off and do other things for a while, but will post a reply later to the new message of yours that I have just spotted in the John Wynne als Salisbury thread. (Short answer is, as last time that Q came up, "That's what we'd all like to know!") ;)
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Hi Heather, Rol,
Thank you! :D, Those pages are a mine of information, I have spent a good few hours untangling chapter 8 - I see what you mean in earlier posts about lacking sources and many dates are missing, but still - I'm keeping a copy of this very safe.
Kev
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Thank goodness for Wayback Machine ;D
Sadly chapter 7 is still missing :'( Perhaps it was omitted in error originally - who knows? It's all a bit of a tangle but better than nothing!
I'm trying to resist being pulled under th spell of the Salisbury clan again but their puzzles are very addictive. Such a shame that so many of the parish records don't begin until the late 17th century. Many of them that are earlier do not have any surnames either. Still there are lot of 16th century documents at the NLW archive so I live in hope that one day more answers will come to light.