Author Topic: Pentland/Pendleton in Seagoe Parish, Drumgor  (Read 8965 times)

Offline Roxanna

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Pentland/Pendleton in Seagoe Parish, Drumgor
« on: Wednesday 08 October 08 11:46 BST (UK) »
Hi,

I am writing for suggestions on accessing the records of the Church of Ireland in Drumgor, Seagoe Parish.

I have an Alexander Pentland, probably born about 1770 in that area.  Married to Elizabeth.  He likely died in that area.

They had at least 5 children we know of, all listed as being born in Drumgor.
Elizabeth b. 1801
John b. 1804
John b. 1807
George
Samuel b. 1810

I'd like to see if more children are listed and/or locate the marriages of these children.

Any suggestions?

I don't live locally, and PRONI seems to want specific info before doing a lookup.

Do you know whether the churches in that area have folks who do record look ups?

I have checked with LDS and they don't seem to have church records, from what I could locate. (and if someone knows that they do, please let me know the link - thanks)

Thanks for any suggestions.
Roxanna

Offline aghadowey

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Re: Pentland/Pendleton in Seagoe Parish, Drumgor
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 08 October 08 12:24 BST (UK) »
Had a look around and can't really find anything online. The church records don't appear in LDS catalogue (searched under Seagoe and only Catholic church records are listed).
PRONI doesn't do research for you but will, I think, provide a list of researchers.
There is this site which lists what records are available:
www.sagp.org/church_details.php?category_id=61&church_id=177&from=church
they have a link to Armagh Ancestry but no idea what services they provide or what they charge for information.
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!

Offline Roxanna

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Re: Pentland/Pendleton in Seagoe Parish, Drumgor
« Reply #2 on: Monday 13 October 08 22:14 BST (UK) »
Thanks.

I will check out the link.

Roxanna

Offline worldlywanderer

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Re: Pentland/Pendleton/Pentleton in Seagoe Parish, Drumgor
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 29 June 14 11:50 BST (UK) »
I seem to have gathered lots of information on the family of Alexander Pentland and Elizabeth _____ to the point where I am uncertain of what is fact and what is supposition. Can anyone confirm or disprove the following:

1. The births of Elizabeth 1801, John 1804, John 1807 and Samuel 1810 are based on christening records from Seagoe Parish Church.

2. George Pentland, born 1806 married Jane Anderson (I'll return to George later after sorting out this generation.) I saw somewhere on the boards that his birth date had been confirmed using census records as 9 November. Is he the George who is believed to be part of this family?

3. Three further children mentioned at various times all of who seem to me to be too late to be part of this family: Elizabeth Jane 1815, Thomas 1829, Ann 1831

4. Alexander Pentland died in 1841 in Seagoe parish and Elizabeth, his wife died in the same place n 1848- is this from a headstone, if so in which churchyard?

5. Elizabeth (1801) married Edward Tapley, 1826

6. Moses Walker married Sarah Pentland in Seagoe parish 4 July 1809

7. The Tithe Applotments for Seagoe 1834 list Alexander Pentland and John Pentland at Crossmecaghley could there be a connection?

8. The 1863 Griffiths valuation has Alexander & John Pentleton at Crossmacahilly. Since this is likely the same place is it also the same family?


Offline Roxanna

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Re: Pentland/Pendleton in Seagoe Parish, Drumgor
« Reply #4 on: Monday 30 June 14 02:06 BST (UK) »
I will reply to the items I know of:

1.  This info was provided to me by a research from Armagh Ancestry, years ago.  I have seen a couple of the records myself on copies of the Seagoe Parish records.

2.  I have no info on the birthdate of George Pentland who is in my line. 

3.  The other children of Alexander were provided by the same researcher and later confirmed by another researcher.

4.  There were death records listing the death year of Alexander and then later Elizabeth.  The key to the death of Elizabeth was that she was listed as living at Derrykeevan and the only Pentland family living at Derrykeevan was that of George and Jane.  No one has been able to find any burial records or tombstones for them, though I am told that many tombstones have been lost over time, and also that graves were re-used...

5. I will have to check my records on Elizabeth married to Edward Topley.  I believe her father was mentioned as Alexander, she was married in Seagoe Parish, and Edward Topley was the sponsor at a baptism of George and Jane Pentland's daughter Elizabeth in 1826.

6.  I have no info on Sarah Pentland who married Moses Walker, but based on her age, she would be a child of Alexander and Elizabeth and an Aunt to George Pentland who was born in 1806.

7.  I have no info that would connect them, and wish it could be found.  George and Jane lived at Drumgor before moving to Derrykeevan in the mid 1820s.  Any of them could be related.

8.  I agree that the Crossmecaghley and Crossmacahilly refer to the same places, and that those fellows are in the same line, if not are the same folks.... though one or both could be the son of.

Best,
Roxanna

Offline worldlywanderer

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Re: Pentland/Pendleton in Seagoe Parish, Drumgor
« Reply #5 on: Monday 30 June 14 07:13 BST (UK) »
Thanks Roxanna, that is very helpful, more than most, you will understand how information becomes twisted and confused on the boards and also loses any trace to the original source.

1. I'll list this to check the parish records in due course.

2. The reference to the census records is, I suspect, a reference to a pension application which was checked against the 1841/51 census when these still survived. I have checked the references for Pentlands and it didn't turn up a George but I don't think I checked for Pendletons or Pentletons

3. IF a second Elizabeth was born in 1815 it points to the early death of the Elizabeth born in 1801 but the younger Elizabeth would have been too young to marry Edward Tapley in 1826. If the deaths for Alexander and Elizabeth are correct then he was between 66 and 68 when the two youngest children were born. It would also point to her being considerably younger than Alexander. From what you have said you have not seen records for the younger births so there could be two other explanations; there was a son Alexander whose baptism has not been found and he was father of the two youngest children or Alexander married twice.

The only Elizabeth Pentland I can find born in 1815 was the wife of James McDonnel and her birth date is calculated from her 1836 marriage date.

The putative son Thomas was, I think, Jane Lynass' husband and their marriage record, his death and the 1901 census support his date of birth. The marriage record gives his address as Drumgor and his father as Alexander, weaver. My suspicion is that the Alexander born about 1763 was his grandfather.
The same argument applies to Ann Pentland: her marriage reord shows her address as Drumgor and her father as Alexander and her birthdate fits more sensibly with a younger Alexander than Elizabeth's husband.

4. Is  the only evidence which survives that Elizabeth moved from Drumgor to Derrykeevan the baptisms of George Pentland's children?

5. You may well have hit the nail on the head; George' address was recorded in the baptism records of his children Lucy and Elizabeth as Drumgor. The latter baptism was witnessed by Edward Tapley and Jane Pendleton but I've seen no speculation of who she may be. When his third daughter, Jane married her address was given as Derrykeevan. Together this suggests a connection but makes the 1806 birth date I have been given for George impossible. It was, I suspect, based on a death date in 1871 but the only death in Civil Registrations for a George at that period was for John Babe's father in law. Admittedly, I have seen no father for him so perhaps there is a connection but that's hardly proof.

I suspect the baptism records are also the support for the move mentioned above from Drumgor to Derrykeevan.

6. I agree with your assessment which means, if George is accepted as a member of this family Sarah is likely Alexander's sister.

7 & 8 I agree, the place is the same, it just needs a Poirot to work out how the relationships fit. I wonder whether my two Alexanders theory helps?

Offline Roxanna

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Re: Pentland/Pendleton in Seagoe Parish, Drumgor
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 01 July 14 01:52 BST (UK) »
Hi,

2.  I did look at the 1841 and 1851 census fragments when they became available recently, and didn't see anything for George.  If you  find anything, I'd love to see it.

3.  Regarding the Elizabeth born in 1815... I am not sure that she is the Elizabeth that married Topley.  I have no info on the parents of Elizabeth Pentland who married Topley... however, he seemed to have some connection to the family.

I agree, that if she was born in 1815, she would be too young.

I do believe that there was a son Alexander, though I don't have a birth record for him.  I had seen births for a couple named Alexander and Mary Pentland.... The birth records were:

Alexander Pentland, b. 22 apr 1832, Drumgor
Mary Jane Pentland, b. 11 aug 1834, Drumgor
John Pentland, b. 1 feb 1838, Drumgor


I have concluded that this couple, having children in Drumgor would likely be descended from Alexander and Elizabeth.  It has to be his son or there was another Pentland family living in Drumgor at the time???? no way to verify.

Anyway, when the census abstracts came out, there was a pension request for a Mary Pentland, daughter Elizabeth, who was living with her brother, a Murray in Drumgor.  Mary was widowed, and born in 1843.  That birth year lines up with the other siblings mentioned above.  So I do believe this is Mary of the Alexander and Mary Pentland couple mentioned in some birth records.  And I do believe they are in the same line. 

It may be that Thomas Pentland married to Lynass is the grandson of Alexander and Elizabeth.  That is an interesting thought.  (has anyone explored his death record or whether he had a will?)

If so, then the above children and these others could be the children of Alexander and Mary, and the grandchildren of Alexander and Elizabeth. 

Thomas Pentland, b. 1829, married to Jane Lynass
Ann Pentland, married to William Jones in 1851, Seagoe Parish
Alexander Pentland, b. 22 apr 1832, Drumgor
Mary Jane Pentland, b. 11 aug 1834, Drumgor
John Pentland, b. 1 feb 1838, Drumgor

4.  Hmmm.  In 1834, per the tithe applotments books, there is a record for an Alexander Pentland living in Drumgor.  If his son was there, living with him, would he have been listed separately?

Also in the 1834, per the tithe books, George Pentland is listed as living at Derrykeevan.

There are records for George Pentland having children first in Drumgor, then in Derrykeevan.  At the death of Elizabeth, she was listed as being from Derrykeevan.  The record is:
"Elizabeth Pentland, Derrykeevan, age 80, buried 15 aug 1848". 
Since George and Jane were the only Pentland family living in Derrykeevvan, she had to have been the mother of George and likely came to live with him after being widowed. 

There are records of baptisms for the children of Alexander and Elizabeth, in Drumgor, and there is a record of the death of Alexander, taking place in Drumgor, on 11 nov 1841, age 78. 


Misc.
I have begun to think that I should consider all the Alexander's as being connected and related and pursue their lines to see what can be found.....

I'd appreciate any ideas you have.

Roxanna

Offline worldlywanderer

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Re: Pentland/Pendleton in Seagoe Parish, Drumgor
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 01 July 14 07:36 BST (UK) »
2. Sadly, thee are very few Pentlands listed in the surviving fragments of the 41/51 censuses. Who knows where further clues to George's pedigree will come from but one day they may appear, meanwhile is is very much a matter of stitching together families from the existing evidence.

3. Nice work. We have another generation at Drumgor and who knows where that will lead.

4. There would only be one entry in the Tithe Applotments for the Pentland homestead as it is a charge on the land. It is particularly important to discover when the record was created as they happened over a period of years. (Useful background here http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/search/tab/home.jsp.) In this case, if Alexander inherited from his father, Alexander the date would give a clue to the death date of the older Alexander if it is possible to work out to which of the two the record refers. That George was living elsewhere and had his own land is a clue that he is not the eldest son. Now that I know from where the death information came I am inclined to agree that she moved in with son George after her husband's death. This does not imply a complete removal of the family to Derrykeevan, rather that her eldest son had taken over and for her own reasons she preferred to stay with her younger son's family. It does indicate pretty strongly that George is another member of the newly created generation.

I agree that it is only possible to construct families from earlier records if one has a wider view of how people were related to each other.


Offline joboy

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Re: Pentland/Pendleton in Seagoe Parish, Drumgor
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 01 July 14 09:56 BST (UK) »
I dont know whether what I have will help or confuse regarding George Pentland.
I have been tracing a family named Pantland (they are in my tree) and then I started I gathered everything I could about this unusual name.
There was one George *Pantland* born Ireland that I noted and followed by census from 1841 to 1871 when the name changed to *Pentland* at 1841 he was 40 and at 1871 he was 72.
He married Mary Keable 1821 and they lived at St George in the East raising several children there.
Joe
Gill UK and Australia
Bell UK and Australia
Harding(e) Australia
Finch UK and Australia

My memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
Also, my memory's not as sharp as it used to be.