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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: caimaver on Sunday 18 December 05 22:09 GMT (UK)
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Hello-
Someone recommended this site to me from a Scottish Genealogy mailing list. I am trying to figure out what WWI regiment my great-grandfather belonged to based on a photo I have of him in his military uniform.
My great-grandfather, Alexander Murray, is the one on the right in this photograph. The tartan looks pretty clear and you can see that he has three medals; the first one on the left looks like the British Service Medal, and the one next to it might be the Victory medal but I can't identify the last one at all which looks like a five-pointed cross if that makes any sense.
Alexander Murray was born in Barrhead, Scotland and moved to America in 1909. He actually went back to Scotland as soon as the war broke out because he really wanted to fight in it. Family legend is that he earned the nickname 'Red' during the war but he wouldn't say why.
If you can help me identify any more details from this photo, please let me know. You can e-mail me at "caimaver )at( yahoo [dot] com" if you'd like. I can also e-mail a higher-res version if it would help.
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Hi Calmaver and Welcome to RootsChat !
I think it's Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders - I found a picture of WW1
http://static.flickr.com/39/74928789_7a8b05936b_o.jpg
Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders
Pipe Major 1st battalion
Looks very similiar to me - you watch! - somebody else will say something
different!! :P
Annie
PS I just noticed the sporron (? spelling) is wrong ..... !
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Hi, i think the medal on the right may be a Croix de guerre.
Kev.
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Changed my mind , too many points, sorry.
Kev. ::)
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Now I look at the two pictures together - I'm not sure .... :P
The shoulder is wrong - extra tail on the sporron (?) and the collar
Hat looks right and the bandalier and the buckle - but the man standing next to him has
the same shoulder pin!!
I'll keep looking!! :P :P :P
where's Mack and Chris??
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where's Mack and Chris??
hiding :-[
he's not a manc.... ;D
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seriously tho....
the key here is the collar, there's a regimental ID there, don't ask me which
i'm a little wary of the medals, the ribbons don't look like WW1 to me
this is a black and white pic of some WW1 medals and compare the ribbons (not a clue on the star)
(http://harribobs.smugmug.com/photos/48791518-S.jpg)
cheers
chris
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Thanks for the help!
Someone on another mailing list suggested that he might be in the Royal Highland Fusiliers. From the few images I can find of their tartan on-line, it seems like it might fit. The only problem is that the photos I've seen of men in the Royal Highland Fusiliers show them wearing a checker-pattern on their cap and my great-grandfather doesn't have that so I'm not sure...
As I'm looking more and more on-line, I still can't find any WWI British medal like the left-most one that he is wearing. My parents are the ones who have the actual photograph, I only have the scans. I am going to try to identify the numbers on the colar when I visit my family for the holidays next week. If I am able to see the regimental ID, where could I go to look it up?
- Cai
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Here's the closest I can get on the medals and collar on the scan I have in case it helps...
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Alexander's Shoulder clasp has a lion rampant whilst the other chap does not (looks more like a jewel stone).
The sporron has a thistle set on it.
The collar badges seem to be the figure 8 followed by an X (could be wrong as I can not see them too clearly).
The glengarry that Alexander wears shows no tartan border.
Could this be a Canadian Scottish Regiment as Alexander could have enlisted in Canada rather than come back to England to sign up? just a thought.
Any more information on Alexander might help in working out the regiment etc.
old rowley
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Here's the closest I can get on the medals and collar on the scan I have in case it helps...
is that X on his collar a crossed swords?? rifles?
I hold my hands up, he looks like every other piper I've ever seen, anyone got a a link to a non military piper to compare?
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Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if some of the 'facts' about Alex Murray are wrong. This particular branch of my family is known for telling some pretty wild stories. Family legend is that he went back to Scotland to join the army but it wouldn't surprise me if he went to Canada instead. You can read all of the information I have about him on my web site at www.caimaver.com/murray/ but I'll summarize it here:
- Alexander Murray born July 6, 1875 in West Arthurlie, Barrhead, Scotland
- Married Agnes Guild in 1897 in Glasgow and had many kids there.
- Alex traveled to East Newark, New Jersey about 1909. His other family members would join him one by one over the next couple years, the last being in 1914.
- Alex supposedly went back to Scotland to join the army but left his family in New Jersey.
- Alex returned to his family in New Jersey immediately after the war. I can not find him or any of the family members in the 1920 US Census but I have found them in the 1930 US census and it does list him as fighting in the World War.
I'm impressed that you noticed the lion rampant on the clasp, I have looked at this photo many many times and I had never noticed it. The first 'digit' on the collar definitely looks like an 8 but I'm not sure about the second; it looks kind of like an 'X' but with a curve going across the top two tines of the X. I can't wait to see the original again at my parents house next week.
Thanks again for all the help!
- Cai
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I'm wondering if this is him - in jail!! :-[ age is a couple of years off!
1920
Portland Ward 2, Cumberland, Maine
Alexander Murray 47 years Scotland Prisoner
Year of immigration 1883
Mother's Birth Place Scotland
Father's Birth Place Scotland
Annie
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Cai,
Alexander Murray enlisted in the 48th Highlanders (part of the Canadian Expeditionary Force) at Toronto Canada on 7th August 1917. He gave his address as being number 41 President street, East Newark, N.J. U.S.A.
Naming his wife, Agnes G. Murray as his next of kin his occupation at the time is given as "Machine operator" and his date of birth is recorded as being July 6th 1876.
He was also recorded as having served for 12 years as a private in the Renfrewshire Territorials.
You will find the above and more including build, colour of hair and eyes etc at
www.collectionscanada.ca
you need to go into the data base for the soldiers of the 1st world war. put in his name and army number 2393598 and you will be able to view his attestation papers (two pages, front and back the back one has his discription)
Therefore I believe that the kilted uniform that he is shown as wearing is that of the 48th Highlanders.
old rowley
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Woohoo Rowley!
Good job! - I was completely "off "and you are "on" ::) ::) ::)
Annie
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hi annie,
I'm just waiting for the scream from cai when my last postings read!!
old rowley
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That's incredible!!! Thank you so much for finding that record old rowley! This record is certainly of my great-grandfather. I must say that I never would have guessed that the tartan in the photo (I looked up 48th Highlanders on regiments.org and found this: http://regiments.org/tradition/tartans/davidsn.htm).
Now I'm going to see if I can find Alex's medal records. I had no idea about the Refrewshire Territorials service, I wonder if that would explain the wierd 5-pointed medal at all? This also gives me some good information to go back and see if I can find any more information on his family in New Jersey in the 1920 census.
I can't say I'm too surprised that the information I have on Alex is off. It turns out that he didn't go to Scotland to join the military (although he joined a Scottish regiment) and he didn't join as soon as war broke out because he wanted to fight so bad. In fact, I'm a little confused about why he went to Canada to join since at that point, America had already gotten into WWI.
Thanks to everyone for the help. And old rowley, if there's anything I can do to return the favor, let me know!
Sincerely-
Cai
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Heres a list of Canadian Medals
http://tinyurl.com/7m5rx
Maybe you'll be able to find the elusive one!!
Annie
:) :)
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and here is a pipe major of the 48th Highlanders, Mr. Farquhar Beaton
(http://regimentalpipers.com/48pd/history/images/PMBeaton.jpg)
and the pipe band in 1913
(http://regimentalpipers.com/48pd/history/images/48th1913.jpg)
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Hi, in WWI they were part of the 15th Canadian Infantry Battalion.
Kev. ;D
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the mystery medal could be a temperance medal,mack
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Now found that they were part of 3 canadian infantry battalions
48th Highlanders of Canada became 15th, 92nd, 134th, Bns.
Kev.
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Kev
this is confusing me, a battalion is a sub division of a regiment
what's the source of this info?
cheers
chris
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Hi Chris, firstly i searched the london gazette for mentions of the 48th highlanders.
They repeatedly came up as 15th Canadian infantry battalion (48th highlanders)
Then i have this link to scottish military history.
And i found the bit about them being the 3 battalions
http://www.btinternet.com/%7Ejames.mckay/na003.htm
Kev.
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Thanks Kev
I really don't understand the canadian set up! :D
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I don't understand why i can't find a medal card for him though?
I am certain that is a victory medal.
No Alexander murrays listed as canadian anything in the national archives MICs not even any A Murrays.
There is an Alexander Leo Murray??
There seem to also be listings under the C.E.F and under Canadian battalions also!!
Driving me mad ??? ???
Kev. ;D
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i'm not convinced it is a VM, compare the ribbons to the trio in my post
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Yes, i know, but i think that is quite similar, i can count 7 bands which is right and i think the medal looks quite similar also. And i haven't been able to find anything that looks more likely??
Did wonder if the one on the left was a territorial war force medal, as he was with the territorials before, but ribbons not right on that either, the medal on the left does look like a british war medal, but ribbon isn't right again.
Kev. ;D
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i know chris is a mate of mine,but i agree with him,the first medal has got what looks like queen victorias head on it,the only medal that fits the bill,is the mediterranean medal,it was awarded to militia battalions that garrisoned malta+gibraltar during the boer war so they could release the regular batts who were drafted to the cape,mack
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I was going to suggest taking a look at Digger ..... :)
http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-medals/oz_interest2.htm
I was looking at the Temperence medals Mack !!
Annie :)
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just looking at the pic again after i had a play with it , and i might have to eat my words about the two 'round' medals...they look more like VM and BWM if you sharpen the image :-[
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Thanks for all the help in trying to find more info on Alexander Murray! Since Old Rowley discovered his attestation Papers and his regiment number, I have been trying to find any information on his medals but with no luck.
I would be willing to put money on it that the first medal is a British War Medal based on the photo. I'm not as sure of the second one but it seems likely that it's a Victory Medal. I still have no clue on that last one; I can't even find any WWI medals that have the same shape. I think I'll send to Canada for whatever other records they might have on Alex now that I have his regiment number.
I have a couple questions though. As I look through the MIC, it seems like most of the regiment numbers are much shorter than Alex's (2393598), is that because he is from a Canadian regiment? Does the MIC contain all of the Medals for Canadian regiments? Also, how do the badges on his collar relate to his regiment? Would they be symbols of his rank or of the regiment he belonged to or something else?
Thanks again for all the help, and for the photos!
- Cai
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Thanks Kev
I really don't understand the canadian set up! :D
chris,the 48th highlanders of canada are a regt,their three batts are the 15th,92nd and 134th,in our regts it would be 1st,2nd and 3rd battalions,mack
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Hi Cai,
The collar badges/insignia would denote the soldiers regiment either as the regiment number or in a badge form.
I can not come up with the meaning for the emblems on Alexanders collar the 8 (?) and X might represent 48 but I don't honestly know.
As for the third medal I haven't a clue could it be a band medal perhaps?
The 48th are still an active regiment in Canada and they have a regimental museum (under the regimental church) perhaps you might what to contact them to see if they can help.
DOH! I 've just come off the 48th museum site and yep guess who forgot to get the web address.
old rowley
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http://www.stothers.com/momex/NavCode/photo/PhotoID/13.html
Some pictures of Canadian medals ..... !
Annie :)
Heres a site that may be of interest now......
http://www.thegreatwar.ca/
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i think i have a real possiblility for the mystery medal thanks to the very knowledgable people on a medals forum i sometimes use
it could well be a Valcartier souvenier medal, issued to or bought by soldiers who'd been through the Valcartier camp
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Chris that looks bang on to me, nice one.
Kev. ;D
Merry Christmas everyone.
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This PDF file has details of the camp and loads of photos including the medal and at least one of the highlanders.
http://66.207.114.162/genealogy/pdfs/1stContingent.pdf
Kev. ;D
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thats where i got the pic from!! ;)
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Wow, thanks for all the help in trying to identify the medals! I was finally able to make a better scan of the photograph after visiting my parents house (this one is at 1200dpi). The medals and collar badges are more clear but I'm not sure if they help any!
The Valcartier medal looks like an excelent possibility. The only thing I'm not sure on is that in the photo of the medal posted by harribobs, the medal has a ring around it with spaces between the ring and the center. The medal in the photo doesn't seem to have those spaces but it could just be because of the poor detail in the photo. I asked my dad if he had any more information about the photograph and he said that he always thought it was taken as some sort of free mason thing and that maybe the extra medal had something to do with that. I think the Valcartier medal is a more likely choice.
The neck badges are more clear in this scan but I still can't make out what there supposed to be. Thanks again for all the help you've all given me, I've learned so much already!
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http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,412879.0.html The 48th Highlanders is looking for photos fr their museum. The attestation papers aren't the only information available at LAC.
Once you have all that information you can send for the actual service files on the person, no battle history, but medical, may contain some family info , etc...can be quite extensive depending on the duration of service...( 25 to 100 pages ) http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/001042-130-e.html?PHPSESSID=ibvo1sj58knc07tebnj63k7fr4#g