Author Topic: Richard William/Williams or Richard1841 Talyllin  (Read 7594 times)

Offline lilyJ

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Richard William/Williams or Richard1841 Talyllin
« on: Saturday 01 December 07 00:11 GMT (UK) »
I wonder if someone would mind seeing if I've found gg grandfather Richard WILLIAM(S) on the 1841 census or if I'm jumping to unwarranted conclusions(ie out to lunch!)

I have him in London in the 1851 and subsequent censuses. Birth year is consistent for 1823 or 1824. Birthplace is Talyllin on all censuses but Corris in the 1901.
I have his 1851 marriage cert at the Welsh Chapel in Jewin St according to the rites of the Welsh Calvinistic Church.
Occupation on marriage cert is stone mason(slate mason on 1851 census)
Father's name on cert is William RICHARD, quarryman.
Now I'm trying to find him in 1841. Can't find a suitable candidate in London(Middlesex)

Looking for him on !841 census in Merionethshire ,I found a Richard RICHARD with a father William RICHARD and on the same image a Richard WILLIAM both in the Talyllin area, H0107 Piece 1429 Book 9 Folio 11 Page 15, but am inclined to dismiss RW one as the age is not right.
How likely is it that Richard RIchard could be my Richard WILLIAM as I thought the Welsh naming system had more or less disappeared by this time?
Also, it couldn't be that easy could it because IGI has the RICHARD family christenings at the Reheboth Calvinistic Methodist Chapel inTalyllin and I just couldn't be that lucky or could I?
Sorry this is so rambling. Would appreciate any comments
Lily

PS If I got the reference wrong or if I need to document it would someone direct me to where I can find out how to do this? Thanks



Offline Gadget

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Re: Richard William/Williams or Richard1841 Talyllin
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 26 December 07 20:37 GMT (UK) »
Hello Lily  :)

This is a Welsh puzzle! 

What you've possibly found is not the full patronymic (ap/ab etc) , which had practically disappeared from Wales by this time, but the intermediate stage. This was still used in some areas into the 19th century, especially in  this area. It is very confusing as a person might be known by both x (father's first name) and x (father's second patronymic name) in different contexts and by different people. For example in parish records, one minister might use the semi-patronymic form and another might use the surname form for the children of the same parents.

I notice that in the 1841, Richard was entered as 18 but then the enumerator has corrected it to 15 (rounding down ). This would fit with your Richard's birth date. Also, I note that William Richard's occupation was entered as 'J' - as were a number of others in the book. The enumerator appears to have use three different types of J: a round looped J that he used for all the occupations and some first names; a pointed top loop J for other first names; and a J above the line for surnames such as Jones.  I think the J in occupations might refer to 'journeyman' - I'm not too sure of the quarrying occupations but some were fairly skilled.  There is a site for the North Wales slate quarries but at the moment, I can't fined it. I'll do some further searches.

I can't find a Richard Richard(s) who matches in the 1851. By 1851, William Richard is widowed and his daughter, Mary Richard, is the only one of the children left. He is down as a Quarryman, b. Mallwyd, Merionethshire.

From the evidence, I would say that you could be 85-90% confident that you have the correct family. It might be worth checking up on brother Howel/Hywel and his mother Mary's death certificate (1841-1851)

Good Luck

Gadget
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Offline Gadget

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Re: Richard William/Williams or Richard1841 Talyllin
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 26 December 07 21:22 GMT (UK) »
This site may help with information about the slate quarries of North Wales:

http://www.penmorfa.com/Slate/


Gadget :)
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Offline lilyJ

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Re: Richard William/Williams or Richard1841 Talyllin
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 26 December 07 22:15 GMT (UK) »
Hi Gadget

Thank you so much for your response.I really appreciate it. You have really clarified for me the transition period from the traditional  Welsh to the modern naming system.
 I will follow up on the death records- good idea that hadn't occurred to me so thanks for that too.
I also found a contact who has William Richard of Corris on a will of one of her ancestors. We are both struggling with the naming system so I shall share the info you gave with her.
I think I saw a message here-maybe it was yours- about the excellent literacy levels of the  Welsh quarrymen. If you can recommend a site for that I'd be really grateful.

An 85 -90% confidence level souds good to me- nice Christmas present :)
Again thanks
lilyj



 


Offline Gadget

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Re: Richard William/Williams or Richard1841 Talyllin
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 26 December 07 22:28 GMT (UK) »
Hi Lily

This gives some more refs to Welsh Quarries:

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/#Occupations

Also, if you scroll down the page to Education, there are a few refs to voluntary education in Wales pre-1870.

It is highly likely that the literacy  link would be with non-conformist chapels rather than the quarries.

Gadget
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Offline lilyJ

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Re: Richard William/Williams or Richard1841 Talyllin
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 26 December 07 22:42 GMT (UK) »
Thanks Gadget
Off to have a look now
Lily

Offline Gadget

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Re: Richard William/Williams or Richard1841 Talyllin
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 26 December 07 23:03 GMT (UK) »
This might be of interest as well:

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,58862.0.html

Gadget  :)
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Offline lilyJ

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Re: Richard William/Williams or Richard1841 Talyllin
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 27 December 07 00:32 GMT (UK) »
Thanks Gadget
I found the reference to William Richard and have asked Dolgellau for a translation

Tried an online dictionary but that method would probably take me a year or two!
lilyj

Offline Gadget

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Re: Richard William/Williams or Richard1841 Talyllin
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 27 December 07 00:39 GMT (UK) »
Hi Lily

Dollgellau is a pretty busy person so, if he doesn't get back soon, it might be worth your while putting up the excerpt as a new thread with 'translation please' appended. There are quite a few Welsh speakers on here who would help out, I'm sure  :)

Gadget
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