Author Topic: Any Poor Law Relief experts?  (Read 5164 times)

Offline maggbill

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Any Poor Law Relief experts?
« on: Wednesday 30 July 14 13:35 BST (UK) »
Have just obtained Poor Law Relief Application for an ancestor - 1870 - 72 which has raised question.

Long story.. but.... the short version is - Jane migrates with her parents and siblings from Ireland to Glasgow in 1864.  1865, she meets an Irish soldier of 59th Foot regiment in Glasgow.  Regiment transferred to Ireland, she goes too, they marry there, have a child - but fairly soon thereafter his regiment is sent off to Ceylon.

Jane applies for Poor Law Relief in Glasgow in 1870 (also again, later in 1872, when she gives a full list of her "residences" since migrating originally from Ireland.)  On the 1870 application the "Settlement" is one word - "Ireland".  I am presuming that was the outcome of the application - they sent her back to Ireland?

Does anyone know the guidelines for these applications?  I think I have read somewhere that you had to have lived for a consecutive ?5 years within the Parish area to be eligible for "Relief".  And if you hadn't you were sent back (more or less "deported?), to the "Parish" of origin - even if this was Ireland.  When I do the calculations/time frames of her listed "residences", it does in fact appear that she went back (was sent back?) to Ireland for at least 9 - 14 months (1871 - 72).  Could I be right in this? Any ideas on how this would be done? 

Her own parents/siblings were struggling in Glasgow - as far as I know Jane didn't have close family  in Ireland.   Did authorities in fact do this to people - just send them back to fend for themselves?  Was there no "system" to help?  My Jane did in fact die of TB in  June 1872, about 6 months after coming back to Glasgow - at least then supported by her parents.  Her own mother applies on Jane's behalf for Relief only a month before Jane dies  - for help so that she, the grandmother can keep Jane's 5 year old daughter.  We then lose track of the young daughter, and the two grandparents - not to be found again in any Glasgow records...???

Sorry, this is a long waffly story, but would love to hear if anyone has knowledge of the Poor Law Relief Systems of those days, and if my interpretation sounds plausible.   The other thing is that the childs father was a serving soldier up till 1873 when he was discharged from Army - but looks like he didn't take any further interest in child after about 1867/68?  Any Army support for the child??  His discharge records give no indication that he was even married or had a child at all.

Any comments anyone? 
McNab, Kenney, Johnstone, Carrigan, (Cargan, Kirgan, Corrigan), Toll, Tracey, McNulty,  Reilly, Maguire, Loughlin, Banks, McGonagle, Forsyth, McDonald, Michael,  Kennedy, Bagnell, Cronan, Dunleavy, McMullan. -  Glasgow, Ireland, British Columbia Canada, Manchester New Hampshire USA.

Offline maggbill

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Re: Any Poor Law Relief experts?
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 30 July 14 13:44 BST (UK) »
P.S. Forget to mention - when the grandmother applied for "Relief" to help look after the 5 year old child - there was again a one word answer - it looks distinctly like "Refused". !!  Again, I suppose as the child hadn't been resident in Glasgow for 5 full years? 

And therein lies the mystery - the fate of the child and her grandparents after 1873.  Where did they go to?  (Grandparents Francis McNab  wife Mary McCue, both in late 50's, granddaughter Mary Kenny age about 5 or 6.)  It is a brickwall I have been struggling with for many years - with enough little pieces, the jigsaw one day might be complete?
McNab, Kenney, Johnstone, Carrigan, (Cargan, Kirgan, Corrigan), Toll, Tracey, McNulty,  Reilly, Maguire, Loughlin, Banks, McGonagle, Forsyth, McDonald, Michael,  Kennedy, Bagnell, Cronan, Dunleavy, McMullan. -  Glasgow, Ireland, British Columbia Canada, Manchester New Hampshire USA.

Offline miriamkinga

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Re: Any Poor Law Relief experts?
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 30 July 14 14:13 BST (UK) »
Have you tried looking for the child - Mary? - in the census in an orphanage/ workhouse?

I found my ggg grandfather's daughter in a orphanage/ home for soldier's children while he was away. She died there of typhoid  :'(

Might the grandparents have gone back to Ireland if they couldn't get any help in Glasgow?
GOATER, LAN, ALL
BOURKE, MAYO/ LAN
LONERGAN, TIP
McGREAL, MAYO
FLAHERTY, GALWAY/ ALL
HOUGH, LAN/ ALL

Offline miriamkinga

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Re: Any Poor Law Relief experts?
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 30 July 14 14:16 BST (UK) »
Interesting article about poor relief  here: -

http://www.workhouses.org.uk/records/scotland.shtml

It looks like it was 7 years' residence to qualify.
GOATER, LAN, ALL
BOURKE, MAYO/ LAN
LONERGAN, TIP
McGREAL, MAYO
FLAHERTY, GALWAY/ ALL
HOUGH, LAN/ ALL


Offline Scottish Janealogy

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Re: Any Poor Law Relief experts?
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 30 July 14 14:48 BST (UK) »
Each parish was required to support the deserving poor within its boundaries, so long as they were born in the parish or had acquired settlement there. Settlement was gained by living in a parish for 5 years or a married woman could adopt her husband's parish of birth or residence.

In cases where settlement was another parish, aid might be given and the relevant parish (in Scotland) charged or the person might be removed to that other parish. Someone born in Ireland, England or Wales, with no settlement in Scotland, who had been receiving poor relief in Scotland could be forcibly removed.

For the legislation see http://www.workhouses.org.uk/poorlaws/1845act.shtml   (section LXXVI relates to settlement, section LXXVII relates to England, Ireland and Wales born people) 

http://blogserver.cne-siar.gov.uk/wp-archivist/?p=2726 gives actual Western Isles examples

Poor relief for her child could have been refused for reasons other than settlement eg the family's income deemed to be sufficient to provide for her.

Hope this helps and all the best with your search.

Online Lodger

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Re: Any Poor Law Relief experts?
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 30 July 14 15:06 BST (UK) »
I think miriamkinga is right, it had to be, as far as I know, 7 years residency in the parish of application.  What you have to remember is, there was no distinction made between countries within the United Kingdom and, as Ireland was part of the UK, it would have been deemed acceptable to send her back to her parish of birth (or perhaps the last parish where she, or her husband, had the required number of years residency). If she had been English or Welsh it would have been the same. There was a Poor Law system in operation throughout Ireland at that time, communication between parishes, (all over the UK) was frequent and the information asked for was thorough.
Paterson, Torrance, Gilchrist - Hamilton Lanarkshire. 
McCallum - Oban, McKechnie - Ross of Mull Argyll.
Scrim - Perthshire. 
Liddell - Polmont,
Binnie - Muiravonside Stirlingshire.
Curran, McCafferty, Stevenson, McCue - Co Donegal
Gibbons, Weldon - Co Mayo.
Devlin - Co Tyrone.
Leonard - County Donegal & Glasgow.

Online Lodger

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Re: Any Poor Law Relief experts?
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 30 July 14 15:31 BST (UK) »
I have just spoken to the "Oracle" at the City Archives (you all know who she is) and, off the top of her head, she thinks the period of residence was 7 years up until about 1860 or so, then it dropped to 5 years and around the 1890s it was further reduced to just 3 years. She also said that having "Settlement Ireland" on the claim did not mean that the person was forced to return there, (although it did happen on occasions) but that the claim was sent to the parish in Ireland and if it was accepted, then money was transferred to the parish in Scotland.
We are no further forward in finding your little Mary!
Going back to the original claim you obtained. Is there any mention of money after the "Settlement Ireland" statement? Or anything else written after that?
Paterson, Torrance, Gilchrist - Hamilton Lanarkshire. 
McCallum - Oban, McKechnie - Ross of Mull Argyll.
Scrim - Perthshire. 
Liddell - Polmont,
Binnie - Muiravonside Stirlingshire.
Curran, McCafferty, Stevenson, McCue - Co Donegal
Gibbons, Weldon - Co Mayo.
Devlin - Co Tyrone.
Leonard - County Donegal & Glasgow.

Offline maggbill

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Re: Any Poor Law Relief experts?
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 31 July 14 07:29 BST (UK) »
Hi everyone,
Thank you all very much for your input - and sorry to have taken a while to answer - rather busy day.  There certainly is a lot for me to think about in your replies.

When Jane made her Relief application in 1870, and the "Settlement" was "Ireland" - the only further statement dated the same day of application was "Offered Poorhouse by Indoor Inspector, did not come in".  No mention at all of any financial assistance.  But we know that sometime thereafter she spent about 9 to 14 months in Ireland, whether by her own volition or not, who knows?  Might have to chase up Poor Law records for Ireland - ?place of birth and longest residence maybe, rather than where she was married and spent shorter time with her soldier husband. 

We have spent lots of research time on the child Mary Kenny and her grandparents - have found a very vague possibility for a 14 year old servant in Argyll in 1881 Scottish census... but really too vague - and no sign of grandparents. 

Will have to spend time on Irish Poor house possibilities - and would be glad of any comments on this... but do really appreciate your input so far.
McNab, Kenney, Johnstone, Carrigan, (Cargan, Kirgan, Corrigan), Toll, Tracey, McNulty,  Reilly, Maguire, Loughlin, Banks, McGonagle, Forsyth, McDonald, Michael,  Kennedy, Bagnell, Cronan, Dunleavy, McMullan. -  Glasgow, Ireland, British Columbia Canada, Manchester New Hampshire USA.

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Any Poor Law Relief experts?
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 31 July 14 14:10 BST (UK) »
When Jane made her Relief application in 1870, and the "Settlement" was "Ireland" - the only further statement dated the same day of application was "Offered Poorhouse by Indoor Inspector, did not come in".  No mention at all of any financial assistance. 

"Settlement  - Ireland" just means that for whatever reason she and/or her husband had not lived long enough in any parish in Scotland to be entitled to claim relief in that parish.

If she was offered relief in the form of admission to the poor house, and refused it, the usual thing was for her to be struck off the roll, which means that the parish where she applied for relief closed the file and had nothing more to do with her (unless and until she reapplied at a later date).
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.