Patrick and James Clines born 1829 and 1836

[ciderdrinker]

Hi
Has anybody got any information on brothers  a Patrick and James Clines/Clynes born in Mayo 1829 and 1836.There father was a Thomas Clines and they moved to the Bilston area of England in the 1840's and 1850's respectively.Patrick seems to have married a Catherine Ratchford and James a Mary Ford, both spouses families originally from Ireland.
Thanks for any help
Ciderdrinker

[heywood]

Hello,

not much help I am sad to say but 1851 has Patrick and Ellen Clines with the Rochford family. There is also a Catherine Rochford in the family.
Free BMD has a marriage 1849 with James Clynes and Catherine  Ratchford.
You probably have this but it is confusing isn't it.
Have you seen that there is also a Martin Clines in Bilston of a similar age.
heywood

[ciderdrinker]

Good Morning
Thanks for that Heywood.I did find that info .Originally working my way back through a Thomas Clines born 1853 in Bilston ,got his birth certificate  and found his parents where Patrick Clines and Catherine Rochford which fits with the 1881 census for the couple at the Wagon and Horses Bilston and mother in law Catherine Rochford and sister in law Jane.
Then I saw the 1851 census and things got a little confusing.Patrick is married to Ellen ,but has the same mother in law.However Ellen Rochford/Ratchford latter marries a John Larkin and Catherine is then with Patrick.So is this an early form of wife swapping?
I will have to buy that marriage you saw,I hope they have made a mistake and James Clyne is really Patrick or things are getting even more complicated.
I have brother James's marriage to Mary Ford in 1860 but only a transcript naming the father's so there could be more to come with a first wife back in 1849.
I 've done a little tracking of Martin and he has a brother Thomas born 1830 and sister Ann born 1813 together in 1861 in West Bromwich ,it would be nice to match them up but that seems to be beyond me at the  moment.
The more I look the more uncertain I became.I have Thomas 's birth certificate as I said but the only 1861 census entry I can find for a Thomas age 8 is Thomas Chines/Clines son of Martin in Bilston.But then Martin can't be both in Bilston and West Bromwich can he?And the birth certificate definitely has Patrick and Catherine.
Sorry to complicate things even more .Thanks for the help I was beginning to give up hope of a reply.I will look into that marriage.
Ciderdrinker

[heywood]

It's a bit of a puzzle.

1841 - there isn't a daughter Ellen with the Ratchfords/Rochfords. It may be just a mistake in the census information of course - the family may have mixed the two daughters names up in 1851.

Free BMD has a birth for Thomas Clines March 1853 and a death in the same quarter for a Thomas Cilnes - I wonder if that is the same child.

There is no Thomas with Patrick and Catherine but if they married in 1849, there is a possibility that they had children who died as there children in 1861 are aged 7 yrs - 11 months.

As you say, Martin has a son Thomas in 1861 and they are in Bilston. (I don't uderstand the reference to West Bromwich.)

[ciderdrinker]

Hi there
There are two Martin Clines on the 1861 census -one in Bilston born 1821 and the other Martin Clynes in West Bromwich born 1829 .Although looking at it the second one is single and the other has Mary ,Bridget,Thomas and Martin so why am I thinking about the one in West Bromwich?Excuse me,I'm just going around in circles.
I saw the birth for Thomas Cline in March 1853 and have bought the certificate as it was the obvious entry to match the latter censuses .I didn't check the deaths.
Trying to look at it from a distance I think I need to buy Thomas's marriage certificate to Bridget Joyce at West Bromwich 1874.It's my own fault for jumping a step .
Thanks for all your help.I do appreciate it.
Ciderdrinker

[heywood]

Yes, I think that would be best.
There are no clues in 1871 as Thomas is not with Martin and Hannah.
He does name a son Martin which could be a clue but it would be best to check the certificate.

Have you seen 1911 index here: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XWW6-MYD
Birthplace is Temple Street, Bilston

1861 has Martin and family with son Thomas 8 yrs living at Browns Yard, Temple Street!

Good luck 

[heywood]

Last thing - if Martin turns out to be the one you need, there is a marriage for him in 1861 - so you wound be able to see if he is of the original family.

[ciderdrinker]

Dear Heywood.
Congratulations ,you were right.Martin Clines is Thomas's father.
Just got that marriage cert for 1874
Thomas Clines 21 puddler  Foster St Wednesbury son of MARTIN Clines dec.lab
Bridget Joyce 19 Foster St daughter of Peter Joyce labourer .
So you were on the right track and I can forget Patrick .

Looking at it ,their first 5/6 children are named after them or their parents Peter and Catherine,Thomas and Bridget and Martin.That just leaves Mary what's the odds that she's Thomas's mother?
Anyway thanks for the help.I will look up that marriage in 1861.
Back on the right track
Ciderdrinker

[heywood]

That's great news thanks for letting me know.

Best wishes
Heywood