Author Topic: BRICE of Tiverton, Cruwys Morchard, Halberton  (Read 27782 times)

Offline Darwin

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Re: BRICE of Tiverton, Cruwys Morchard, Halberton
« Reply #27 on: Sunday 03 October 10 20:47 BST (UK) »
I am in awe of what you have been finding there Deb!

Captain Will has lots to sort through - I hope he can add some extra information that will throw some more light into this!
Devon: Sloman & Parsons
Banffshire: McGregor & Ogg
Census information is Crown Copyright  http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline deb usa

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Re: BRICE of Tiverton, Cruwys Morchard, Halberton
« Reply #28 on: Sunday 03 October 10 20:56 BST (UK) »

Captain Will has lots to sort through - I hope he can add some extra information that will throw some more light into this!

Me too, Darwin... I am confused with Captain Will B ...not to be confused with our thread starter CaptainWill.  ;D ;D

I have seen a tree that states that Capt Wiiliam B = Elizabeth James and had kids in Guernsey ...but this William married Elizabeth James in 1802 ... a bit long in the tooth for William bc 1755 to be marrying ...but then again it's possible!

deb
Travellers = Penfold, Orchard, James
Devon = Middleton,  Waterfield, Adams, Clark/e, Gould
Cornwall = Palmer, Carnarton, Slack/Smith. Morris/h
Wales, New Quay = James, Evans


All UK census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline CaptainWill

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Re: BRICE of Tiverton, Cruwys Morchard, Halberton
« Reply #29 on: Friday 15 October 10 17:30 BST (UK) »

The record held at DRO states:
Thomas Brice, Priscilla his wife, John, Edward and Susanna their sons and daughter, of Halberton  1198A-1/PO 133  1725/6
held at Devon Record Office, Sampford Peverell Parish

So John = Joan Drake had four children with names of Priscilla, Susannah, Thomas and Edward

could it be that Thomas and Priscilla are the parents of John who married Joan Drake...who in turn named children after his parents and sibs?

deb

 Hi!

  Sorry about the delay in replying, Deb and Darwin, and thanks for your input.

   All in all this is very exciting for me. Thankyou very much for doing this research, Deb.

  I have been checking a handwritten chart and transcribing some details.

  I found that the records of Thomas Brice and Priscilla (nee Bennett) were thus:

Thomas Brice
   - bapt. 17.10.1695 place unk.
   - d. n/k
   - married on 14.11.1719 to Priscilla Bennett
      - at Sampford Peverell
      - her bt. & d. not known
      -
   - Known as "of Halberton, later of Sampford Peverell"
   -
   - Their children were
      - Edward Brice bt. 02.10.1725 at Sampford Peverell
      - Joan Brice bt. 20.09.1729 at Sampford Peverell
      - Thomas Brice bt. 30.01.1732 Sampford Peverell **
      - Robert Brice bt. 17.09.1736 Sampford Peverell **
      - Henry Brice bt. 19.11.1739 Sampford Peverell
   
   I notice that there is a gap between the marriage of Thomas and Priscilla in 1719, and the first listed child Edward born October 1725.

   This makes room for babies John and Susannah to have been born, even though they are not on this list.
 
  As you highlighted, the Devon Record Office note that you found seemed to show a date of 1725-1726

  Of the above listed children, only Edward could have been born at that time (as well as John and Susanna if they were born in that gap period).

    So there would have been only John and Edward and Susanna born, which corresponds correctly with the DRO info you found:

Quote
Thomas Brice, Priscilla his wife, John, Edward and Susanna their sons and daughter, of Halberton  1198A-1/PO 133 1725/6
held at Devon Record Office, Sampford Peverell Parish

   Here is a clear record of a son John and a daughter Susanna of that couple Thomas Brice and Priscilla. It was for some reason not detected by the researchers who made the chart that I have.

   If they were removed, that might be the the reason.

   [ While I'm on this topic, can someone tell me a bit about "removal orders"? (Perhaps point me to a thread on that if there is one already, or perhaps it would make a good thread.) ]

    I am inclined thus to agree VERY MUCH with your suggestion that the John Brice who married Joan Drake probably was the son of Thomas Brice and Priscilla, the one mentioned in those Devon records, that possibly were removal orders.

   This validates the family history research done by some of Dorothy Herd & John Brice's descedants in Guernsey who seemed to have a pre-existing recollection that John Brice was the 2nd son of Henry Brice and Christian Rowe and that they had confirmed this by checking baptism records in Halberton.

   Along with this it shows me I am a 1st cousin x times removed from the John Brice who married Joan Drake, so I have found much more family!!!

  This family can trace back to a Christopher Brice marrying a wife named Beatrice around 1530 in Holcombe Rogus with direct lineage down to the said Brices.

   I will (hopefully) post more info later on that topic (the earlier & contemporary branches) when I transcribe it off that handwritten chart to which I've been referring.

  Thanks again for this help in solving this quandary. I guess we can never be 100% sure but as Darwin said, it's compelling.

  Will.

 PS    I have still to try to check some of the other things you've posted Deb, e..g the picture of ship on an account sheet of William Brice, but will get back to you on that.

   

Offline CaptainWill

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Re: BRICE of Tiverton, Cruwys Morchard, Halberton
« Reply #30 on: Saturday 16 October 10 00:20 BST (UK) »
     [ Editing this retrospectively: In this post I had thought Elizabeth Brice nee James had died in 1814 and her birth year to be about 1765, but please see in a later posting in this thread, Deb's discoveries & evidence to the contrary, that:
    (1)  Elizabeth Brice nee James did not die in 1814 as I had thoguht but was still alive at least till 1851, and
    (2) Evidence is that Elizabeth's age is younger than I had thought, being born around 1776 rather than 1765..
              Capt Will 17.10.2010 ]

Will ....

When you come back could you give us details on William Brice the Captain .. wife, kids etc etc

Thanks

Deb :)


    Hi again Deb and Darwin.

   I think Deb you have found the dates of birth of those uncertain siblings of Capt William Brice..

    I too am a bit mystified. I see that James Brice among them was born in 1755. That is the same year we have for William Brice.

    Could they be twins?

    [Edited out my other speculation re it being alternate names since we know both they were two individuals 17.10.2010]

   As for William Brice's age of marriage, it's not very old really.

   William's wife Elizabeth James was also ten years younger. He was 47 when married and she was 37.
   
   Elizabeth James was born in Devon. Her father John James was from "Lyme" in Dorset.

    I note that William's sister Austice -- or "Anstic" b.1753 as it is on the note you found -- also married a man whose surname was James (see the will of John Brice in updated earlier entry), and speculate they could be of the same James family.
  
    William Brice in the late 1700's and his brother Richard Brice went to Guernsey.

    Both bought properties there about 1799. Richard bought a farm and William bought a house in St Peter Port. William operated his ship out of St Peter Port. It seems the family were significantly involved in marine matters.

   William and Richard both married nurses from Devon who were working in Guernsey at Saint Sampson hospital.

    Younger Richard married Mary Luscombe of Devon (married in Guernsey) in 1799, when Richard was then 34 years of age.

   William, ten years older than Richard, also married a nurse, Elizabeth James, of Devon, married in Guernsey, in 1802, by which time William was 47 and Elizabeth was 37.

   William had three sons, Richard had two sons and one daughter.
  
   Interestingly both William Brice and his wife Elizabeth James died in 1814, according to my records, and so I presume this was some calamity. He was 59 and she was 49.

  [[ Capt Will edits: the above is now shown to be incorrect. ]]

   When William and his wife died, at least one of the boys, the middle one, was under the legal guardianship of their uncle Richard. One could surmise they came under the same roof.

   William's 2nd son John James Brice, b.1807, married his first cousin, Maria Brice, b.1810, the only daughter & third child of his uncle Richard Brice who was his guardian.

   John James Brice and Maria had four children, and in 1850 they all migrated in the ship the 'Posthumous' to Port Adelaide, South Australia.

  [ Editing: I clarify that this is based on identifying a family Mr Bruce and wife and four children" on that ship, and the supposition that it is a misprint. After extensive search finding no trace, yet with collaborative confirmation of their migration that year, this fits and I feel confident it is correct (it was a misprint: it was Mr Brice and wife and four children).]

      The book 'Guernsey Emigrants to Australia 1828-1899" by David Kreckler also mentions briefly the migration of John James Brice, his wife Maria, and four children in 1850, but that author did not discover the ship. However a cousin of mine recently found it.

    They joined the gold rush that started in Victoria in 1852 (2 yrs after emigrating - good timing) and had a hill named after them "Brice's Hill" in the Victorian goldfields in the 1850's.
 
     Various of the other descendants of the two brothers William and Richard Brice were involved in work related to the port and shipping.

   Richard's first son (William, b.1801) married Charlotte Grut of the Channel Islands. One of their sons was a James Grut Brice who was an able seaman and did lots of voyages (found them on ship crew lists) such as to Rio and India and including Melbourne, Australia, in the 1850's.

   Capt William Brice's 1st son William Henry Brice married Elizabeth Duckham in 1825. They had at least 9 children.

    One of their children was Frederick James Brice who was the harbourmaster in St Peter Port in Guernsey.

  One of his sons, John Symons Brice, b. 1861, was evidently drowned while working on the Brig Flossie of Guernsey, fell from the maintopsail on March 27, 1879.

   Another of the sons, Edwin Brice, co-signed the greffier's notebook along with another Mate.

    A grandson of the harbourmaster, Walter Brice born around 1870, in the Channel Islands, roughly seems to fit with possibly being the same Walter Brice who was an a crew member on the Titanic in 1912, a survivor whose interview at the Senate enquiry can be googled, and is quite interesting. This is just my speculation.

    Will post this then think about some more.




Offline deb usa

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Re: BRICE of Tiverton, Cruwys Morchard, Halberton
« Reply #31 on: Saturday 16 October 10 15:47 BST (UK) »
Hi Will

Nice to see you back. I need time to digest all this wonderful info!

BTW ... I have DUCKHAMs from Tiverton in my family. Unfortunately I do not have an Elizabeth  who married a Brice  :-\

deb
Travellers = Penfold, Orchard, James
Devon = Middleton,  Waterfield, Adams, Clark/e, Gould
Cornwall = Palmer, Carnarton, Slack/Smith. Morris/h
Wales, New Quay = James, Evans


All UK census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline deb usa

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Re: BRICE of Tiverton, Cruwys Morchard, Halberton
« Reply #32 on: Saturday 16 October 10 16:34 BST (UK) »
Just looking around at the Guernsey censuses  :)

found this in 1841 ... not sure who Elizabeth would be;

1841
St Peters Port
Richard BRICE 75 ind, b E(ngland)
ELIZABETH Brice 60, ind, b E
John Brice 30 farmer ... s/o William and Elizabeth 
Maria Brice 35 ...d/o Richard and Mary
Lydia Brice 3
Maria Brice 1

then in 1851 we find:
Doyle Cottage
Richard F Brice 42 customs dept boatman b St PP
Jane C wife 39 b England
ELIZABETH BRICE, MOTHER, 74 , WIDOW, b England
Robert T son 11 months
plus a servant

now Richard Frederick Brice is the s/o William Brice and Elizabeth James .... you say Elizabeth died in 1814 as did William, The Captain, but according to 1851 Elizabeth, R F B's mother is still alive.

deb

added ... so it could be that Elizabeth in 1841, is the mother of John and Richard's sister-in-law. Maybe it was Richard's wife Mary who died in 1814?

Travellers = Penfold, Orchard, James
Devon = Middleton,  Waterfield, Adams, Clark/e, Gould
Cornwall = Palmer, Carnarton, Slack/Smith. Morris/h
Wales, New Quay = James, Evans


All UK census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline deb usa

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Re: BRICE of Tiverton, Cruwys Morchard, Halberton
« Reply #33 on: Saturday 16 October 10 18:32 BST (UK) »
hi again

Re; Removal Orders;

The record held at DRO states:
Thomas Brice, Priscilla his wife, John, Edward and Susanna their sons and daughter, of Halberton  1198A-1/PO 133  1725/6
held at Devon Record Office, Sampford Peverell Parish

It would seem that Thomas and Family moved to Sampford Peverell but were sent back to Halberton.

meaning of Removal Orders;
If you did not receive a Settlement Certificate, one of two things could happen. You could stay if your original parish ("parish of settlement") agreed to pay a fee, usually quarterly, to sustain you in your new parish. If not, you would receive a Removal Order, sometimes accompanied by a written pass to the parish of settlement showing the route you must follow. Your parish of settlement was obliged to take you back.

http://www.witheridge-historical-archive.com/poor-4.htm


It has also been discussed here at RC ..see this thread
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=3b4ai3nmd846aoi00a2drc9rh1&topic=438373.0

deb :)

Travellers = Penfold, Orchard, James
Devon = Middleton,  Waterfield, Adams, Clark/e, Gould
Cornwall = Palmer, Carnarton, Slack/Smith. Morris/h
Wales, New Quay = James, Evans


All UK census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline deb usa

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Re: BRICE of Tiverton, Cruwys Morchard, Halberton
« Reply #34 on: Saturday 16 October 10 18:38 BST (UK) »
I wonder if this link would help.

http://sampfordpeverellsociety.com/default.aspx

They hold the Parish Records for:
Burials
Marriages
Apprentice indentures
Bastardy orders, removal orders etc.
Accounts of the Overseers of the Poor


deb
Travellers = Penfold, Orchard, James
Devon = Middleton,  Waterfield, Adams, Clark/e, Gould
Cornwall = Palmer, Carnarton, Slack/Smith. Morris/h
Wales, New Quay = James, Evans


All UK census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline deb usa

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Re: BRICE of Tiverton, Cruwys Morchard, Halberton
« Reply #35 on: Saturday 16 October 10 22:16 BST (UK) »
hi again

Quick question:

Where did you get the info that William, the Captain was 47 and Elizabeth James was 37 when they married in 1802?

deb
Travellers = Penfold, Orchard, James
Devon = Middleton,  Waterfield, Adams, Clark/e, Gould
Cornwall = Palmer, Carnarton, Slack/Smith. Morris/h
Wales, New Quay = James, Evans


All UK census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk