Author Topic: Joseph Furnival & Ellen Summerfield - Cheshire?  (Read 7252 times)

Offline Captain2

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Re: Joseph Furnival & Ellen Summerfield - Cheshire?
« Reply #18 on: Sunday 07 October 12 17:20 BST (UK) »
You are such a star ! I can't thank you enough for all your help.  Yes I would say that is a most probable for young Joseph.  Gosh.. good on Sarah for keeping her illegitimate son, that must have been a struggle for her. 
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Offline Christian B

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Re: Joseph Furnival & Ellen Summerfield - Cheshire?
« Reply #19 on: Wednesday 03 July 13 17:53 BST (UK) »
You are such a star ! I can't thank you enough for all your help.  Yes I would say that is a most probable for young Joseph.  Gosh.. good on Sarah for keeping her illegitimate son, that must have been a struggle for her.

I'm really pleased to have come across this thread as I am a descendant of Joseph Furnival (and Sarah Jane Lloyd).

Perhaps I can also shed "some" light on what others have been saying from family chats with my (now deceased) great aunts.

Joseph was, indeed, illegitimate. The good news is, I know who his real father was, but I am slightly hesitant to name-names here on account that he was a very prominent member of the aristocracy. His descendant is still a high profile figure. The reason why he was involved in the maritime industry is that his real father bought silence and set him up in business.

Joseph's daughter, Florence, was my great grandmother and married a gentleman named Joseph Stathers (they lives at Aston, near Sutton Weaver) and are buried in the parish church. Her younger brother, Granville, was killed in 1917 during world war one, and his picture can be found here: http://www.nightsinthepast.com/European_Battlefields.html

Offline Christian B

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Re: Joseph Furnival & Ellen Summerfield - Cheshire?
« Reply #20 on: Wednesday 03 July 13 19:41 BST (UK) »
Granville and Florence (Joseph's children, aforementioned) also had another brother called Garfield who died in 1972 (I think).

Offline Christian B

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Re: Joseph Furnival & Ellen Summerfield - Cheshire?
« Reply #21 on: Thursday 04 July 13 09:59 BST (UK) »
Just spoken to my mother who knows a little bit about this (family chats from backalong!). Apparently, Joseph Furnival died of Pneumonia - he had arrived back from a shipping venture to Ireland where he had become ill. It is said that some of his friends initially thought he was drunk, but he passed away shortly after returning to Cheshire.


Offline Captain2

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Re: Joseph Furnival & Ellen Summerfield - Cheshire?
« Reply #22 on: Thursday 04 July 13 16:30 BST (UK) »
Hello Christian and many thanks for responding to my post.  Is this the marriage for Joseph & Sarah Jane Lloyd and is Joseph's father William Redford?
marriage

11 Sep 1886 Daresbury

Joseph Furnival 35 bachelor waterman of Halton father William Redford waterman
Sarah Jane Lloyd 25 spinster of Thelwall fether Thomas Lloyd waterman
witnesses George Davis,Ann Jane Davis

To-date I had not followed up with Joseph & Sarah Jane so would love to learn more about them and their children.  I can tell you that I followed the line from Joseph & Ellen Summerfields first and only surviving child Joseph Furnival who was born in 1871.   I have also looked back at Joseph (1849) and his mother Sarah so would be happy to share info/details if you wish

Once again thanks for replying.

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Offline Christian B

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Re: Joseph Furnival & Ellen Summerfield - Cheshire?
« Reply #23 on: Thursday 04 July 13 19:13 BST (UK) »
Hi Captain2!

Joseph's father was not William Redford. Indeed, I have never heard of the name, although there was mention by my great aunts that a fellow (unnamed) was a "stand in". Or something like that.

The marriage dates and ages stack up. As indeed does the fact that it happened at Daresbury - both she and Joseph are buried there. After he died she fell on very hard times, and it was suggested by the authorities that the children be sent to the workhouse. She refused and was horrified by the idea, eventually marrying a gentleman by the name of Thomas Lockett (he survived her, and she was interred with Joseph).

Granville (aforementioned) died in a Canadian Casualty Clearing Station near Poperinge in Belgium aged 23. She never, ever, recovered from his death and became reclusive (we have the ladies' watch she made from the sovereigns he had in his pocket when he died). My great grandmother, Florence, died at Aston House (near Sutton Weaver), as indeed did her younger brother Garfield (he suffered from polio and never married).

Incidentally, my mother has a tapestry made by Sarah Ann Furnival when she was 12 years old.

Alas, I am sketchy as to who her parents were, so any information would be very welcome!!!

As to the identity of Joseph's real father?... You'll be amazed.

Offline Christian B

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Re: Joseph Furnival & Ellen Summerfield - Cheshire?
« Reply #24 on: Saturday 06 July 13 20:28 BST (UK) »
Hello again Captain2,

Forgive me for taking time to debate whether to "enlighten" further, it's just that the Furnivals (i.e family of Joseph and Sarah Jane Lloyd) were a very tight-knitted family and effectively kept the identity of Joseph's father to themselves. However, these things all happened a long time ago, and I see no reason why I should continue that trend!

Joseph was illegitimate. But, according to his granddaughters (of whom one was my grandmother), his real father was Hugh Lupus Grosvenor, the 1st Duke of Westminster.

To my knowledge, Sarah Ann Furnival worked at Eaton Hall for a short while in her late teens (perhaps very early twenties). She and Hugh Lupus had a short affair (he wasn't married to Lady Constance Leveson Gower until a few years later) and, despite her requests, he refused to legitimise the child through marriage. And, let's be honest, that was unlikely given that she was a domestic servant and he one of the richest men in the United Kingdom. But, either way, Joseph was his first born son.

Of course, this may sound preposterous. But have another look at the photo of Granville Furnival at the link I provided earlier and I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions.

Personally, despite that fact that I am 99% convinced that my great-great-great-great grandfather was Hugh Lupus, I have no affinity with the family from a "these are my roots" perspective. For me, the fact that Sarah Ann brought up a little boy by herself in poverty during an age where illegitimacy was taboo means far more.

But the person I feel most close to is Granville. That is why I have his photograph on the wall, just to remind myself how fortunate I am to have the lovely young family that he ought to have had. I fully intend to travel with my mother to his grave at Lijssenthoek War Cemetary in the next few years - no family member has ever done so to date.

So, now I've written that I'm wondering whether to click "post". But there's no good reason not to do so anymore.

Best wishes,

Christian


Offline Captain2

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Re: Joseph Furnival & Ellen Summerfield - Cheshire?
« Reply #25 on: Monday 08 July 13 15:55 BST (UK) »
Hello Christian -  Thank you so much for the information; well that certainly is very interesting I agree.  From what I can gather, Sarah did not benefit from their 'daliance' she bought up her son without favour, by the 1861 census she is unmarried with her son Joseph aged 12 and they are both boarding in the house of James Evans in Runcorn, so no money and no prospects it would seem until she did finally marry in 1865, so a happier ending.... perhaps. 

Thank you again for responding and for putting forward such an exciting new development, I certainly feel this calls for more investigation.......

 Very kind regards

Angie
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Offline Christian B

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Re: Joseph Furnival & Ellen Summerfield - Cheshire?
« Reply #26 on: Monday 08 July 13 20:35 BST (UK) »
Hi Angie,

It is certainly interesting in an "upstairs-downstairs" kind of way! But, seriously, it would have been extraordinarily difficult for Sarah.

I wish I could furnish you with more detail regarding the alleged affair between her and Hugh Lupus, but I now have to go only on what I can recall during conversations with my grandmother, Primrose, and her sisters. They were salt-of-the-earth folks and certainly not the sort to fabricate myth. Thankfully, my mother remembers her grandmother Florence (Joseph's daughter) with great affection - she was, she says, extremely beautiful in all ways.

My problem is finding out more about Sarah Jane Lloyd and Sarah Ann Furnival, so I would be extremely grateful if you could share any information as to their genealogy. After all, my maternal line passes through the former.

With regards to Joseph, I believe (could be Chinese whispers) that his real father provided him with a little bit of cash to set him up in business during his teenage years. From memory, a lot of his work involved travelling to Ireland, and there was some mention of transporting stud horses back to Cheshire. But don't quote me completely!

Speak soon.

Christian