Poland, Posnen, Poland to Australia

[sue21757]

Hi

Don't know if anyone can help,or if there are any records available.
My Dad's family were Jewish and came from Poland.Three brothers came out to Australia.

Joseph Mannheim  came to Australia 1858 all South Australia
Edwart Mannheim  1860
Marcus Mannheim B-18/11/1840 Samoczyn,Prussia
Father   Abraham Mannheim
Mother   Netta ?
Came to Australia  1865
Marcus married 1/5/1870 to Rebecca Lesser nee Rosenthal
Rebecca Rosenthal  B-1840 Schanlke,Prussia
Father  Judah Rosenthal 
Mother  Unknown

There is a record on BISA that Edward died 1881 Germany.
Joseph went back to Poland because his son came to Australia in 1884 and married his cousin Selina(Marcus's daughter)

Joseph's son

Ernst Arthur Mannheim  B-18/2/ 1867 Tirschtiegel,Posen
Father  Joseph (Marriage Cert)
Mother  Unknown
On Ernest's death certificate it states his father as Abraham Mannheim
Occupation  Rabbi.
I have a small family tree that my GGrandfather wrote out but it is very hard to understand.
Ernest had 2 brothers Magnus and Berthold and at least 2 sister Erna(Emma),
Sarah.

Hope someone might have some suggestion where to go from here.

Cheers Sue

[JustinL]

Hello Sue,

I'll look into these men for you next week, when I have more  time.

Posen was a province of the Prussian (later German) Empire until 1918. This family were German-Jewish rather than Polish-Jewish.

Mannheim, you may know, is a time to the south of Frankfurt am Main., and is likely the original ancestral time.

Justin

[sue21757]

Hi Justin

No i didn't know that about the name.Thanks for that.
On the tree that  i have the name changed from Mann to Mannheim between 1795 and 1830.This is the tree that i have.



Erna is a sister to Joseph(So on the wrong line)
Selina is Wife to Ernest and dausghter of Marcus.Ernest son of Joseph.
I was wondering if the line with JosephEdwart,Marcus& Max if it is first boy under their names on the line.Wives surname just under their names?Regards Sue

[JustinL]

Hello Sue,

Your ggf's family tree is very difficult to decipher.

How could Joseph have emigrated to Australia in 1858, yet had a son in Posen in 1867?

Anyway, here are some pointers:

Samotschin or Samoczyn is now called Szamocin
Tirschtiegel is now called Trzciel

Schanlke was probably Schönlanke and is now called Trzcianka.

I cannot make out the place name at the bootom of the tree; it's probably significant that your ggf wrote Poland rather than Posen.

Trzciel is quite some way from Szamocin. I wonder why Joseph ended up there.

The name change fits in with the general trend for the compulsory adoption of fixed surnames by the Jews in the early 19th century. I'll dig around and see what else I can find on that.

Justin

[sue21757]

Hi Justin

As far as i know Joseph and Edward went back to Poland.Edward was meant to have died in Germany in Oct 1881.
I have found a couple of articles in the Beta Newspapers referring to Joseph and Edward.They were both hawkers.But it seems that Joseph was selling jewellery.
Marcus was a Jeweller in Australia.
Thanks for looking.

Regards Sue

[JustinL]

Sue,

Jews in Posen adopted fixed surnames in 1834 in accordance with a governmental decree dated 22 December 1833.

Have a read though this infofile (I will too), and we can see what can be done next.

http://www.jewishgen.org/InfoFiles/PosenResources.html

Justin

[JustinL]

Sue,

Judging from what I have read, it would seem that your chances of progressing are pretty poor. A lot of the records from these communities were destroyed during the war.

There are a couple of places I can think to look. I'll let you know what I find.

Now, back to your ggf's tree.

He has the tree starting with a Mann; whether that is a given name or a surname is unclear. It could have been a given name, indeed the two men named above - Hirsch Mann and Marks Mann - would have used their father's given name as a sort of surname.

Hirsch was a very common given name amongst ashkenazi Jews. It is the German word for 'stag', i.e. a male deer, and is a translation of the Hebrew word and name Tsvi. Tsvi was a sort of nickname given to boys/men with the holy name Naftali. This custom goes back to early biblical times when Jacob likened his son Naftali to a stag.

Marks, or more commonly Marcus, was the usual secular form of the Hebrew name Mordecai.

Moving up the tree, Hirsch married a Sara (I think), and they had three sons: Abraham, Joseph and Alex.

Did Abraham marry a Rachel Hamburger? Can't make out Joseph's wife's name. There's a suggestion that he took the surname Beer (from the German/Yiddish for bear), and had a son named Hirsch (probably named after Joseph's deceased father). This Joseph may havedied prematurely, as two nephews were given the same name.

As you suggested, the names of the first sons appear diagonally beneath each father. Edward fathered Walter, Marcus fathered Julius??

Wives are on the left.

Does the above make sense to you?

What is BISA?

Justin

[JustinL]

Hello Sue,

Well, you're in luck!!

The Nazi's obsession with racial purity led them to seize all the vital records of the Jewish communites in Germany and further afield. The registers were then diligently microfilmed by the Reichssippenamt - a government department that had been established in 1935 to determine German or Aryan ethnicity - could be translated as the Imperial Kinship Office.

Although most of the original registers have been lost, the microfilms (and copies) survived and are held at several locations. Microfilms of the registers from Samotschin (Szamocin) and Schönlanke (Trzcianka) are amongst them. You should contact the Jewish Museum in Frankfurt am Main. http://www.jewishmuseum.de/

The museum receives enquiries from around the world and can take quite some time to respond. I speak (and write) German and have had to remind them about my enquiries in the past.

Something else you should do is check the Holocaust database on www.yadvashem.org. My interent connection was too slow to connect yesterday, but I found a reference to the death of an Arthur Mannheim, b. 18 Oct 1867 in Samotschin, who died in Theresienstadt and to an Erna ? (maiden name Mannheim), b. 3 March 1872 in Samotschin, who also died in Theresienstadt.

My ggf's younger sister also died there aged 84...

Justin

[sue21757]

Hi Justin

You are brilliant.
After reading the site this morning i didn't think there was much luck on finding anything.I did see the video of Tirschtiegel Jewish cemetary.
As far as i know Abraham's wife was referred to in his change of name Deed Poll papers as Netta no surname.
Marcus's son was Julius,do not know about the others.
I will look on the vadvasme site .
Thankyou so much for your help.Will let you know if i hear anything from the Jewish Museum.

Cheers Sue