David Landale's son Robert Russell

[Dennis UY]

Hi,

My grandfather was Robert Russell Landale Banks and I believe I am a descendant of David Landale from Kirkcaldy.

The story  my mother told before her death was that my grandfather was the illegitimate son of my great grandmother Banks, who worked as a servant, with one of the sons of the household and that he was named after his father, using surnames as names. She also said this son had been sent off to Australia by his family because of this. Miss Banks moved to Edinburgh and later to Stockton on Tees. 

I have researched and found this story closely matches the dates and events in the life of Robert Russell Landale, born 20 Apr 1833 and christened 04 Jul 1833 in Kirkcaldy, Fife, Scotland, whose parents were David Landale (1786-1861) and Mary Russell (1805-      ).

I have not been able to obtain more information about great grandmother Banks and any suggestions of where to search further will be greatly appreciated. I am particularly interested in investigating if she was employed as a servant by the Landale family.

Regards,

Dennis Cahill

Montevideo, Uruguay
South America

[GR2]

Have you looked for the birth certificate, marriage certificate and death certificate of Robert Russell Landale Banks? Do you know when, even roughly, he was born? Have you found him in any census?

Graham.

[Dennis UY]

Graham,

I know he died in Montevideo and is buried at the British Cemetery here. I believe he was born in Edinburgh 24/12/1861 and lived at 69 Thistle St. His mother's name was probably Cristina.

He later moved to Stockton on Tees and lived there until he left to Australia looking for his father when he was 17. He spent 10 years on the Wallaby Trail, returned to Stockton and sailed to Santos, Brazil, in 1889. He met and married my grandmother in Uruguay.

Is it possible to check births and census data through the web?

Thanks again for taking time to help me out.

Dennis.

[GR2]

Scotland's People is the official website for Scottish birth, marriage, death and census records. I have not used it myself as I tend to go straight to Edinburgh to do research. However, using Scotland's People, you get free access to the indexes and pay to download individual certificates and entries. What you get is the actual record, not a transcript.

If your ancestor might be illegitimate, the birth certificate may only show the mother's name. In that case you would look for Banks. Sometimes in such cases later names change from what was on the original certificate. A child registered under his mother's surname may use his father's surname later in life. Sometimes a middle name is the father's surname - Russell or Landale. Also be careful with a name like Landale to use the variant spelling option when using the index as it may sometimes appear differently, e.g. Landell.

Graham.

[MonicaL]

Hi Dennis

IGI here www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=igi/search_IGI.asp&clear_form=true is normally really good at picking up on birth indexes for the period from the start of official registration in 1855 to about 1874/5 when the Mormons stopped loading on Scottish data.

From what I can see, I don't think your Robert's mother's maiden name was BANKS. From the details you have, I think this may be his birth details, from IGI:

Robert RUSSELL LANDALE DINGWALL born 24 November 1859 in Edinburgh
Parents: Christina DINGWALL

As you thought, likely his birth was illegitimate.

This looks a possible 1861 census entry for them:

Ann McLean 53, domestic servant, b. Port (?) Glasgow, Renfrewshire
Christina Dingwall 24, visitor, domestic servant b. Tain, Sutherland Shire
Robert Landale 1, boarder b. Edinburgh

Address: 43 India Place, Edinburgh

Monica 

[MonicaL]

I am wondering whether the surname BANKS was from a subsequent marriage for mother Christina. Haven't found anything for 1871, but there is this entry for 1881 in Durham England:

Christinna Banks 49, Labourer's Widow b. Scotland
Robert Banks 21, Labourer Iron Works, b. Scotland
John Banks 15, Labourer Iron Works, b. Stockton, Durham
Christianna Banks 12 b. Stockton, Durham
Thomas Banks 5, b. Fence Houses, Durham
RG11/Piece 4916/ Folio 67/ Page 13

Added: Found them now in 1871 in West Hartlepool Durham (and fortunately more detailed birth places were included, rather than just 'Scotland':

John Banks 38 b. Tipton, Staffordshire
Christiana Banks 39 b. Gladfield (?spl) Sutherlandshire
Robert Banks 13 b. Edinburgh, Scotland
John Banks 4 b. Stockton, Durham
Christiana Banks 2 b. Stockton, Durham
RG10/ Piece 4922/ Folio 43 Page 27

[Dennis UY]

Hi Monica!

Wow! That's great information you have found!

i have confirmed from family notes that Christina Dingwall was Robert's mother so it looks like his stepfather was Banks.

According to the family story Robert was born with a sick leg and needed special attention to survive. They were both maintained by his real father's family for a long time. Maybe as a boarder at  43 India Place, Edinburgh as you have found? His tip-pence apparently came from 69 Thistle St., Edinburgh.

Robert lived with his mother in Stockton-on-Tees till he was 17 when he quarrelled with his stepfather. He then left to Australia apparently looking for his real father. He spent many years there but never met him. He returned to Stockton with money that allowed his mother to leave her bullying husband. He left to South America and arrived in Santos around 1889.

Do you think there is a chance of finding a link with his real father? Since the name and date he moved to Australia match pretty well I suspect he is:

LANDALE Robert Russell
Birth: 20 Apr 1833
Christened: 04 Jul 1833
Place: Kirkcaldy, Fife, Scotland

Father: LANDALE David (1786-1861)
Mother: RUSSELL Mary (1805-      )

Robert Landale settled in Moulamein, Australia area in 1860s with his brother Alexander.

Thanks a million,
Dennis.

[MonicaL]

Dennis, I think you have great information that has been handed down  I think, from what we are seeing so far, that your Robert was still at home with his mother by the time of the 1881 census, showing as aged 21. Maybe he left for Australia after this time? Tried searching for any shipping manifests for his passage to Australia and then his return (between 1881-89), but haven't been able to find anything convincing so far. His mother Christina showed as a widow by 1881. I haven't been able to find a marriage for her and John Banks between 1861-71 (also searched beyond this date) where by 1871 we have the family in Durham with John Banks in the household.

It can be really hard to prove paternity through documentation unfortunately. You sometimes get mention of applications for paternity/contributions here www.nas.gov.uk/onlineCatalogue/ I have searched with the names we have, not seeing anything unfortunately. If the Landale family were accepting of the situation, the arrangements with Christina may have been made privately, without the need for her to go to Court to apply for assistance.

Your main 'proof' is really the names used for Robert which link you back to the family you have found in Fife. Very common in Scotland to use surnames as middle names in the naming of children. Also common to name an illegitimate boy after his father (including his surname). Not sure if you will find any more definitive proof that what you have found to date. Christina does look to have been working as a domestic servant. If she did work at the Landale household around 1859 and when son Robert was conceived, you're not likely to find confirmation of this.

Robert Snr., your Robert's father, was still in Scotland and living at home in 1861. His departure to Australia must have been after this census from the info you have.

Graham has mentioned earlier www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk which is the official Scottish pay to view site for BMDs and census images. Costs are reasonable, £1.40GB to search and view an image direct from the registers for BMDs or a census image.

Monica

[MonicaL]

69 Thistle Street, is this an address that you a note of? Not many clues from the 1861 census. This is what shows for that address in 1861:

John Gillis 26, head, tailor b. Kilmuir Skye, Invernesshire
Margaret Macleod 45, relative, Washing & Dressing b. b. Kilmuir Skye, Invernesshire
Malcolm Mckenzie 18, cousin, student b. Snezort Skye, Invernesshire

You might be able to confirm this address as where Robert may have been born in 1859. People moved around a lot in those times, so the household above might have no connection with who lived there in 1859.

Monica