German ancestors - ZEITZ

[eise]

Hi,
I am not sure who to address this to as it is quite obscure;
My husbands great grandfather was brought to England or ran away to england, no dates;  To date we have found two names for him.
The first which is the name he mostly went by was Joseph Richard Smith;  He married under this name(we have cert copy) he also died under this name(we hold cert copy) he was interned during both wars. ( we have proven some dates and places for both wars with certs and help from Geneva red cross the CICR)  WE have his internee number and a copy of his tribunal card where he only served abt 18 months in WW2;
Now we have hit a stumbling block.  During all this research we found his German surname of Zeitz and when some of the children we knew had been born didnt show we searched under this surname for the hell of it.  And gusess what.  3 children were acually registered under this surname.  WE bought copy cert and lo and behold there he is with another name Richard William Zeitz;  His wife is the same but with Zeitz instead of Smith and all the adresses match from 1911 census and family docs and information. It is the same person. 
wE know from CICR he was born in Berlin;  We beleive Richard William zeitz was his full German name, is there any way you can help me find out more...

Eileen  on her knees;

[lesleyhannah]

I can only suggest things that helped me when I had a similar problem tracing an in-laws tree. The National Archives  may have naturalisation documents, which often give a lot of information about where the person came from.

The London Gazette Archives (online, free) also has notices put in by people who are applying for name changes (although I found this mainly useful for people who were fairly well off, but you may be lucky).
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/

Also, I'm no expert on German names, but I do know many German Jews changed their surnames when they came to England.
http://www.jewishgen.org/
may be able to help.

You may have tried all these already - if so, sorry!

And Good luck!

[Sue15]

Hello
You do not mention a dob for Richard William Zeitz or give any indication but if he was born in 19th Century you will probably need to consult the church records in Berlin. Of course most of us do not know what religion our ancestor was and so the search becomes a trial and error one.

One way of approaching this is to write to a few of the bodies who hold records in Berlin and see if they can point you in the right direction. You will need to offer them as much information as possible - included a dob

Landesarchiv Berlin
http://www.landesarchiv-berlin.de/lab-neu/start.html
This is the central archive for Berlin. It maybe they can point you in the right direction. I have shown an email address page here.

Generally people were either Lutheran or Catholic religion. Of course some were Jewish. As you do not know which its going to be a process of elimination.


this is the EVANGELISCHES ZENTRAL ARCHIV IN BERLIN
http://www.ezab.de/

Their website is in English as well as German and they hold the Lutheran records.

I would recommend you writing in German as well as English.
I am sure help with translation could be found on RC

All the best
Sue

[eise]

Thank you to both who replied to my request.  Richard William Zeitz (if that was his name) was born 8 Nov 1882 in Berlin;  He used an English name but we do not have any info that he naturalised to Joseph Richard Smith;  As he used both of his names during his lifetime in Hull it is likely no naturalisation was done.

I will try all you both mention and thank you very much.

Eise

[Sue15]

Well at least you have an exact birth date to work from.
Richard William is an anglecised version of a name

It maybe more like Rikhard Wilhelm in German. I can only see one Naturalisation for Zeitz on the National Archives- Theodor Zweitz

I wonder why he selected the name Joseph -

Sue

[eise]

Hi Sue,

thank you for the German translation of Richard we did not know that.  wE are certain he wasnt Jewish unless he had lost all ties with the religeon;  he never natrualised according to family as he used both names.  the story has it from family info nad my research he is supposed to have run away to join a navy school when he was boy then as he didnt like it he started helping out on fishing nboats and and evbentually became a fisherman himself.  This last thing sems more likely as he is listed as a fisherman on a few docs we hold here.  He was born 1882 and we have his actual birth date;  with the help of the Red Cross in Geneva we have discovered he was born in Berlin.
We have his internee number; His death and marriage certs copies; A copy of his attestation record from Red Cross; A copy of his tribunal card from WW2;
He married and died under the name of Smith but for reasons only known to him (possibly because he felt safe now he was married to an english girl) his second third and fouth child were registered and certificated under his German name of Zeitz;
Richard Frederick Zeitz born 12 Nov 1910 and died Nov 1910;
catherine charlotte Zeitz born 10 may 1913; Catherine married under name of Smith;
Violet May born 6 June 1914 - married with same surname in 1932; But it was in June 1914 the arrests were made of alien personell which is possibly the reason he reverted back to Smith;  The name Joseph is a complete mystery apart from the fact many fishermen from otgerh coutries were known as Joe so my uncle told me;

I have tried your sites but find on the land archives i need money which mis har do find her at present being a pensionser;  I will kepp trying and searching our next stop is the police records for arrests made in June 1914 of aliens taken to Lofthouse
park Wakefield to be held unitl taken to place of confinement (Isle of Mann) for the war period;
Thank you for your interest and help

Eise

[SwissGill]

Hello, I've not been very active of late - just reading messages.

I had a quick look on A......y and under "private member stories" it showed

"Joseph Richard Smith? Not so much of an enigma! 1882-1944"

and on the German A......y the same under Richard Wilhelm Zeitz.

The story isn't public.

I thought I'd found something but I guess it's you?

Gill

[eise]

To Swiss-Gill,

Hi.  Yes it is me on A--y  though sadly i am no longer a member dued to me being a pensioner and the price being too high;
I did update Josephs site but dont recall having a german A----Y site, only british. Unless of course it is automatically translated.  If not this could be who i am looking for.
I am at present hoping for someone to get back from National Archives as we now know Joseph or Richard must have been arrested before he was interned in 1914-1919;
WE have his place of containment in 1914- and his place of release in 1919 but as for the bit in the middle we dont know whether he stayed at wakefield wor was moved to Ilse of Mann;  It is a puzzle so this is why now Joseph sint so much of an engma these days; 

Thanks eise

[lesleyhannah]

Eise, is he on the 1911 census?