George McPherson 1862 York Factory HBC passengers

[DitzKnitz]

Is it possible to find out if there is a George McPherson on there?  He was born between 1840-42 and is listed under the Tingwall Parish.  He signed up in 1861 and then traveled to York Factory in 1862, I believe.

[J.J.]

Welcome to rootschat!  I imagine I did scan the whole entry...but whether or not it is here, well, it was a few years ago and I didn't always mark things all that well...I'll have a look when I have time to see if it is labelled...

Lauraine there is something on HERD, David J.  http://www.gov.mb.ca/chc/archives/hbca/biographical/h/herd_david-j.pdf

[DitzKnitz]

Thank you for the 'Welcome'.  I thought that I would share this here, as well.  I sent a copy of this to the HBCA and the MHS.

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There seems to be conflicting information, that has been presented as facts, regarding "Samuel Grey" of the Hudson's Bay Company, on various reports and HBC related websites.  I believe that this is because a father and son have been confused.  I began looking into his file because my Gr-Gr-GGrandfather was "George McPherson".  It has been said that George married Samuel's daughter, which IS true, depending on which Samuel you are talking about.  This would make Samuel Grey Sr (born ca1813) my Gr-Gr-Gr-Gr-Grandfather and Sam Grey Jr (born ca1843) an Uncle.  I am a student at Lakehead University and am currently taking a third-year history course called "The North American Fur Trade".  I decided to revisit the 'Samuel Greys' with the information I have learned so far.  This is what I found . . .


Michael Payne's article "Fort Churchill, 1821-1900: An Outpost Community in the Fur Trade", he states:

"Indeed Samuel Grey Senior was listed by the mid 1880s as "native" despite the fact that he was actually from Tingwall in the Shetland Islands."

According to "York Factory Medical Journals 1846-1849" as transcribed by Colin Briggs & Elizabeth Briggs for the Hudson's Bay Company Archives:

Page 59 (May 9th, 1847):
"Samuel Grey (AEt 4)
While his mother was leading him by the hand he slipped & fell when his his (sic) left arm sustained the shock: such is the statement rendered.  Complains of pain near the elbow joint: on diligent examination no lesion discoverable; order a discutient liniment: Spirit of wine & vinegar."

Page 61 (May 19, 1847):
"Samuel Grey Senr (labourer)
eight days ago had his leg bruised by a sledge passing over it. front of the tibia towards the lower third discoloured & puffy: fluctuation evident-: on being pierced by the lancet a considerable quantity of grumous blood flowed out. A pledget of lint soaked in a discutient liniment applied with a roller: by which treatment he was much relieved."

Page 141 (Feb 11, 1848):
"Samuel Gray's Child (AEt 5mths)"

Last reference to the Samuel Grey family is page 225 on July 29, 1849.

According to 1851 Scotland Census*:

Samuel Grey/Gray Sr. was born c1813 in England and is now living in Tingwall, Scotland.
His wife is Mary Grey/Gray and she was born c1823 at Hudson's Bay.
His son is Samuel Grey/Gray Jr and he was born c1834 at Hudson's Bay.
His daughter is Mary Grey/Gray and she was born c1848 at Hudson's Bay.**

This census would support my belief that the father and son are being confused with one another.  I will also assume that the mother, Mary, was a Native woman.  This would also mean that George McPherson married the daughter, Mary/Marie Grey, who was actually Samuel Grey's (ca1843) sister, and not his daughter.  This error may have caused considerable confusion to researchers in the past.

According to the 1881 Canada Census***, there clearly shows two different Samuel Greys, a Sr and a Jr.  Sr is listed as being born in Yarmouth, England, while Jr was born in Keewatin.

According to the Hudson's Bay Archives Biographical Sheet, "Grey, Samuel (ca1837-1922)(fl.1851-1884); AM/Feb.1999"****:
"Signed five-year contract at Lerwick as a labourer"

This biographical sheet seems to have merged the two Samuel Grey's into one.  According to the medical records, Samuel Jr would likely be only approximately 8 years old when the contract was signed at Lerwick.  As well, the sheet states that he "Retired on pension" in 1884-85, yet in the notes regarding his death, it says "He was also a pensioner having served a term of forty five years in the Company's employ."  This shows a clear discrepancy in the supposed retirement dates.




*Parish: Tingwall, Whiteness and Weisdale; ED: 7; Page: 2; Line: 4; Roll: CSSCT1851_3; Year:1851 (Taken March 30/31st, 1851)
**Considering that the final medical entry while in York Factory was July 29th, 1849, and the March 1851 census date, the Grey family must have moved to Scotland between such dates.
***Year: 1881; Census Place: York Factory, Territories, Northwest Territories; Roll: C_13285; Page: 7; Family No: 28.
****http://www.gov.mb.ca/chc/archives/hbca/biographical/g/grey_samuel.pdf

[J.J.]

Elizabeth Briggs devotes a great deal of time in HBC research and is very knowledgeable.
We all do make mistakes...  having only researched my husband's ancestor I can tell you it is a lot of work searching for all info there may be on one man let alone the multitude she has worked on...Have you discussed this with her? I am sure she'd be more than willing to correct a bio sheet if you indeed can prove your research to disprove theirs... Does it say who compiled his bio sheet...Some of the originals were done many decades ago...
The wife may indeed have aboriginal or metis...The name Mary was used a lot as the country husbands chose the names for their country wives and it was sometimes the name of a sister or mother as it was easier to remember than the actual name of the woman...
BTW anyone can write a book...and even call it "history" with their own "spin" and facts" ...so publications can be a good stepping stone
I also would suggest a visit to the HBC archives to do all local searches for yourself as there may be a lot more entries than those suggested in the bios...
 

[DitzKnitz]

Yes, I have been to the HBC archives a couple times and looked through the journal posts, but that was a couple years ago. But I never did consider at that time to validate the entries referred to in the sheets.  Also, it does not identify who compiled it.

I am stumped on Samuel Grey's (b1818) son-in-law, George McPherson, and his son Roderick (Royrie). I am unable to find ANY info on George, prior to his arrival in YF. So I though I would try scouring the Orkney peripherals and that is when I fiscovered Samuel Grey's 1851 Scottish census record.

Then, George's son Royrie seems to be even more elusive.

[J.J.]

I would start a thread asking about George McPherson and his family * you should include and point to this link to your info on his wife Mary Grey's family http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,303444.msg4506241.html#msg4506241 ( ...and continue there as this is a request for lookups which I will do eventually ...you can see how long ago I made this thread... ( I changed offices and still may one day find that disc...but don't have time to look right now)
p.s. have now looked at the bio sheet and yes, it is a mess...Some researchers only read what they want to read and then call themselves historians...they might more correctly be called revisionists of history. There are some terrific people working at the HBC archives, and I am sure someone will be happy to make the changes and hopefully remove references to sources which are incorrect.

[J.J.]

Note the poster has this information, I am just adding images for those interested!
Samuel Grey Sr. doesn't state Yarmouth England on the census... so it is assumed he is N.S. by transcribers  The two are clearly marked as Sr. & Jr. though aren't they...Yes they both have daughters Nancy and probably had more duplicates but the birth years should have given it away 
Was the 1870 available at the archives on these families? I couldn't find them in 1891...
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/Census/household_record.asp?HOUSEHOLD_CODE=1881CN_19126
It does not help that children sometimes claim to be full cree or aboriginal ancestry ( altho that was likely assumed from their colour)
Was there a son Roderick or was he using a middle name? Did you follow John Robert?
 I see that James had a middle name...http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/Census/household_record.asp?HOUSEHOLD_CODE=1881CN_19125
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/e/e329/e008212302.jpg
http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census/ViewFrame.jsp?id=112793&highlight=4
http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census11/SplitView.jsp?id=27739
 

[DitzKnitz]

I am assuming Yarmouth, UK because Samuel Grey (1803/13) lists his birthplace as England in various censuses. As for the 1891 Census, a huge area north of Wpg, primarily involving Natives, is missing. I am assuming they found little need in performing one when treaty paylists were already maintained annually. We have wondered if Rory was originally "John Robert" and then began using 'Roderick'. However, that is a bit of a leap that needs confirmation. Oral family history says that George sent Rory away when he was very young to be educated. At some point, he arrived near Fort Frances, Ontario. Some say that he had a cousin there and/or worked at a farm. When the farm owner died ca. 1903, Rory moved to Couchiching and married the Chief's sister. Further to that, it was said that where he worked near FF was quite isolated and he would become bored during days off and would walk a significant distance to the reserve when he worked for the farmer.  I am also told that his mother, Marie/Mary/Maria, pronounced her name like Mariah (Carey).

[DitzKnitz]

Oh and James' middle name is 'Inkster'. I have been able to place a few of George's children after 1901, but John Robert is not one of them.

This research definitely has led me on an intriguing path, this week. I have been trying to solve the George/Rory puzzle for decades, though.

In 1889, a fellow retired HBC Orkneyman, William McLeod, is farming in Portage la Prairie. His wife, Angelique Munroe, died a few years prior. On April 26, 1889 Wm. McLeod killed two of his four children with an axe. He then killed himself by slashing his own throat. So, so tragic and no mention of him in the HBC sheets yet.  Isabella died that night, while John survived a couple days. Maggie and Colin were away at school.