Brickwall.

[pansypetal]

OK here goes this is my major brick wall (the biggest of many) I have asked before in different groups but am still struggling badly. I have listed all the known and assumed details (apologies for it being long) and a screen shot of all the ancestry details.....but any help would be greatly appreciated.
Michael Madden
Assumed DOB ab 1850
Married Elizabeth Cushley 01/01/1876
Had 9 children, the youngest (Anthony Hugh Madden) being born in Dec 1896
On the baptism records for Catherine Agnes, Felix and Anthony Hugh – Elizabeth Cushley is listed as Catherine Cushly, Catherine Cushilly and Kate Cushley. The surnames difference is understandable given literacy problems in the time.
I assume that Elizabeth and Catherine are both Christian names and one has been used over preference to the other.
By the 1901 census the family are living together with Catherine as the head of the house but her marital status is still married and not widowed, so Michael is no longer there.
By the 1911 census I found no record for Catherine Madden, and all but 2 of the children have been spread out to different households as servants.
So I assume that Catherine Madden died between 1901 and 1911. There is a possible death record for a Catherine Madden in 1906 for which I have sent off to Dublin for a copy as I can’t get it on RootsIreland.
I can’t find any relevant death record for Michael Madden he appears to have just vanished.
There are no graves that I have been able to find for either Catherine or Michael.
On Daniel Maddens marriage certificate in 1903 it states fathers occupation as Labourer – does not state deceased or alive.
On Catherine Agnes marriage certificate in 1914 it states fathers occupation as Labourer – does not state deceased or alive
So my assumptions and possible theories for what happened to Michael.
1. He died – but why was Catherine still listed as married on the 1901 census.
2. He went to prison, alot of the prison records only state Madden and no Christian name.
3. He went to work abroad probably the UK – as this was suggested to me that its quiet common.
I found one possible Michael Madden as a boarder in Burton, Staffs born in Ireland working as a something moulder but can’t read what the something is.
4. The split up. I did find another possible re marriages
I used the pension records and there was only 1 application for a pension for a Michael Madden, for this area which gives possible parents names and approx date of birth of 1848. My query on this is- if he was still alive why did he let all his children go into service. Liam says that it could be classed as a career.
From the pension records I found several details for a Michael Madden with different named wives.
Margaret married in 1914 would have made Michael in his 60’s possible 2nd marriage after Catherine died or maybe thats why he left. Concerns occupation and value of estate.
Bridget poss DOM 1902. Occupation farmer
Elizabeth – Catherines name on the marriage certificate. Concerns occupation signal man and location although this would account for them not being in Derry on a census.
5 He Emigrated.
Found a shipping record for a Michael Madden travelling alone to Boston USA.

[greeneyedgirl]

Hi,found these and believe these are the two death records of the people you seek.

Deaths:

Catherine Madden
age:53
died:22 May 1906
district registered:Magherafelt
subdistrict:Magherafelt
status:married
D/1906/182/1022/19/352

Michael Madden
age:73
died:8 Aug 1927
district registered:Magherafelt
subdistrict:Bellaghy
status:widowed
D/1927/179/1022/23/26

It is very possible that Michael was just out working when the enumerators came around to take census-with a large family you would probably take any work. These are available from groni.ie for a cost of 4 euro each. Groni can even e-mail you the copy of the certs. I will tell you though that Irish death certs really don't have much in the way of genealogical info.Hope this helps.Will look and see if can find anything else. Kim

[greeneyedgirl]

Sorry meant to say that the long number at the bottom of each is the number to quote when requesting a copy of the cert.Kim

[pansypetal]

Thanks Kim,

I did get the death certificate for Catherine who dies in 1906 but don't believe its the right one due to the age difference. I have looked at a lot of the deaths for Michael Madden but will go back re check my notes to see if I researched this one.

Thanks a lot for your help, this one has been driving me crazy.

Heather

[iluleah]

1. He died – but why was Catherine still listed as married on the 1901 census.

Unless you find a death cert, he didn't die, it says she was married so likely he is still living otherwise it would say widow, he could have left her but she is likely to say she is a widow as it was shameful to be an abandoned wife, but if the enumerator knew the family nd it is likely then she would not be able to say widow

2. He went to prison, alot of the prison records only state Madden and no Christian name.

Possibility, but then you need to look for Quarter session records such as these http://www.magheragenealogy.org/index.php/otherresources/53-newspapers/86-magherafelt-quarter-sessions-28-june-1873.html
In Derry these started in 1613 and could just as well be likely to be held at PRONI in NI

3. He went to work abroad probably the UK – as this was suggested to me that its quiet common.
I found one possible Michael Madden as a boarder in Burton, Staffs born in Ireland working as a something moulder but can’t read what the something is.

Highly likely given the time,I would suggest you follow this Michael Madden in Burton after that census and see what happened to him

4. The split up. I did find another possible re marriages

Split up yes, another marriage highly unlikley as that would mean a divorce, not something a Labourer could afford and not something that happened in NI

I used the pension records and there was only 1 application for a pension for a Michael Madden, for this area which gives possible parents names and approx date of birth of 1848.

Was he Prod or RC? Did he have a birth cert? Possibly not and if not then that information is secondary, what they thought, what he told them... look for a baptism record which will give you his parents names

My query on this is- if he was still alive why did he let all his children go into service. Liam says that it could be classed as a career.

True, MOST went into service at that time that was what life was, my own family were farmers and wealthy people even then 9 children, two died as babies, one was killed in WW1, leaving 3 girls and 3 boys, the 3 boys worked the farm as it saved them employing farm hands and the 3 girls were in service, one who remained in service all her working life met and married her husband who was also in service with the same family and he too remain his whole working life in service, she the cook and head and he the gardener and driver, so yes it was a career and could be a very good career, another of the girl was a 'governess' to young children went on to train as a teacher and the other a dairy maid on another farm, she went on to marry a Doctor and spent most of their lives in Africa

MOST Irish /NI records are not online, I can only find one Elizabeth Madden who signed the declaration ( 1912) and she is in the wrong part of NI Ravenet which is near Lisburn/Hillsborough in Co Down ( not Derry) so your lady is either RC or had died already

[greeneyedgirl]

Hi, could this be the father of your Michael Madden?

1901 Irish census:Moyagoney,Tamlacht,co Derry

John Madden age 90,father,Roman Catholic,born Derry,widower
living with son John Madden age 51,his wife Lizzie age 42 and their 6 children


Death:

John Madden
age:89
died:14 March 1902
district:Coleraine
D/1902/96/1008/10/222

I also found quite a few births for Maddens but it does not specify parents:
Maria Anna 1877
Brigida 1878
Jacobus 1878
Margaret 1879
Teresa 1880
Jacobus 1880
Susanna Joanna 1882
Joannes 1882
Maria Anna 1882
Patrick 1883
Felix 1886
Susan 1889
Catherine A 1892
Joseph 1892
Anthony Hugh 1896
Michael 1898

I was looking at your list of their children and feel there may have been others. Hope this is useful,Kim  ps will look about further

[pansypetal]

Thanks Blemdookie

some of these children are Michael s and where all found on the 1901 census. Did do searches using Michaels and Catherine's details on roots ireland and emerald ancestors to see if I could find any more children but none came up, nor did any info for Jennifer..... birth or death......

I will try double checking the other names listed to see if I can find any more children but there wasn't any more listed on the 1901 census.

thanks

heather

[pansypetal]

Thank you iluleah,

its nice to be able to get opinions on my facts and theories....

Both Michael and Catherine where Roman Catholic.

Have never been able to find a birth or baptism for Michael or Catherine, only know Michaels fathers name as it was on his marriage certificate, which the only document that I have really found for Michael, apart from being named on his childrens baptism records and marriage certificates.

Did try to find more about the worker in Stoke but couldn't find anything more about him.

But have some more info to look into again..........will go back thru my notes again and see if anything looks possible, as I think I looked into nearly everyone I could find called Michael Madden. I was told by an elderly aunt that she thought there was an Anthony Madden living in Belfast who had researched the family tree but didn't know any details. So resorted to finding all Anthony Maddens in the electoral role and wrote to all of them, also any Anthony Madden on facebook I messaged them........ but still no joy to the elusive Michael Madden.....lol

Thanks alot for your time

heather

[greeneyedgirl]

Hi again, one last thing I wanted to ask you about. I was looking up the births of the children you have listed for Michael and Catherine and I am a bit confused.I'll put down what I've found so you can see what I mean.

Births:

Jennifer can find no record
Daniel 1874 (did they have a child before they were married)?
John born 1876 only John b 29 March 1876 mother's name listed as Costelloe district:Magherafelt
Mary Ann born 1883  2 listings;born 23 Aug 1883 mother name:Teeney district:Cookstown(Tyrone)
                                             born 10 Sept 1883 mother name:--- district:Downpatrick(Down)
Felix born 1886  28 Feb 1886 mother name:Costelloe  district:Magherafelt
John born 1887 listed 2 Jan 1887 mother name:McComasky district:Armagh
Ellen born 1891 listed as no name b 13 Apr 1891 mothers name:Madden district:Downpatrick
Catherine A born 1892 listed 17 Aug 1892 mother name:Costelloe district:Magherafelt
Thomas born 1895 listed 18 May 1895 mother name:Wilson district:Armagh
Anthony born 1896 listed 2 Oct 1896 mother name:Costelloe district:Magherafelt

You can see why I'm a bit confused. Are you sure the children listed on the ancestry page belong to right family? Kim